Winter Lay up

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dave55
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Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:05 pm
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Winter Lay up

#1 Post by dave55 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:23 am

Hi Gents

Going to lay my RZV up for around 18 months, just got others to ride next year and
was wondering what tips i should do for such a long period.
I will do the obvious oil change drain tank and carbs, but should i run it from time to time or will
a total stop be OK.
New crank seals from a full rebuild last year.
Had a great year riding after a few hiccups oiling plugs but time for a 4 stroke V four next year
my sweet handling Honda VF500 F2.
Just need to make sure the RZV is locked up and safe. :shock:

Dave UK
1984 RZV500R
1985 FZ750 FN
1986 VF500 F2
2016 BMW S1000XR ( i need speed/brakes/handling :)

vma500
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Re: Winter Lay up

#2 Post by vma500 » Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:28 am

i would certainly drain the cooling also ...if u ve leak somewhere ur cranks are rusting , but now and then starting is best option and ofcourse stalling at room temperature in ur living room :smt005
my bikes :RD500 2X ,RD 350 F2 , RD 350 31K,RD350 4LO,RG500,RG250 WW,RGV250,TZR250 3MA,TZR250 3XV,NS400r,NSr250 mc21,KR1250S,

podman
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Re: Winter Lay up

#3 Post by podman » Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:04 pm

Coolant has a corrosion inhibitors , so IMHO draining it isnt a wise thing to do, especially in the UK.

Not a fan of starting them myself, a hot and cooling engine attracts moisture to it and ensures condensation saturates the whole bike as it cools in your garage.

This is how my SRAD was when i picked it up a few years ago during the Winter, chap used to fire it up every couple of weeks and let it sit until the fan kicked in..)


[url]Image

Like this internally.

[url]Image

It just enhances the whole corrosion process..We all know most engine wear occurs on start up, so why start it unless your going to use it?

I syringe 2 stroke oil down the inlets and remove the plugs, syringe a little more down there, gently kick her over so ensure the pistons and crank are coated, I then drain the carbs and tank of fuel and add some oil into the tank to help fight corrosion in there as well.

I wont be starting it until the Spring as sprung..

2002tiil
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Re: Winter Lay up

#4 Post by 2002tiil » Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:53 am

Fuel:

Mine will get Forté fuel treatment, drive it with the treatment (will keep carbs clean).
Full fuel tank.
Tires get 3 Bar presure

I bought a Vac bag for motorcycles and put the bike in (incl. anti damp unit), vacuum the bag and it'll stay there till summer.

rd84
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Re: Winter Lay up

#5 Post by rd84 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:47 am

Hi,

Seal the exhaust stingers and airbox inlets if you think the humidity is high in your garage.

I spray the bike with WD40 ( keeping the spray away from tires, discs and brake pads of course :smile: ) and I also put a small thermostatically controlled electric radiator next to mine - it only needs a low setting - however if the garage is damp and drafty probably best to use a vacuum bag instead as suggested above.

Cheers
Paul

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Re: Winter Lay up

#6 Post by vma500 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:39 am

That looks more then only humidity problems Podman , some bikes i never used for years and never had like that ......almost looks like mayonaise
sorry but coolant still contains water , so i don t trust on it , had 1 crank destroyd from an rg 250 wwolf , still need to fix that , so can only agree partially
my bikes :RD500 2X ,RD 350 F2 , RD 350 31K,RD350 4LO,RG500,RG250 WW,RGV250,TZR250 3MA,TZR250 3XV,NS400r,NSr250 mc21,KR1250S,

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Speed Freak
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Re: Winter Lay up

#7 Post by Speed Freak » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:08 pm

On the picture it looks more like a failed water pump seal, but this new bikes usually have a groove between water and oil side where the water can go outside the engine if the seal fails.
If you do this starting procedure over 2-3 years I think it is also possible that it looks like this.
The engine is warmed up but the oil is not hot enough that the water evaporates.
While cooling down the humidity in the air condensates on the inside of the crankcase and goes into the oil.

This is the reason why I don`t heat my garage in winter.
Same procedure with the fuel tank if there is an air bubble at the top.
You heat the air up, then it can carry more humidity and when it touches the cold metal parts of the bike (or while cooling down) it will condensate.
In case of the fuel tank it will drip into the fuel and the water is accumulated at the lowest point of the tank.
My RD350 had a tank which was in perfect condition, only the lowest point where a water bubble was located was rusted thru from the inside.
My second tank which was stored dry for 20 years was in overall perfect condition.

But in this case we are talking about 3, 4, 5 years and more, for 6-8 months nothing will happen.
Turn around the engine every month that the seal lips do not get marks and everything will be fine.
Put some 2-stroke oil into the cylinders and turn it over several times to protect the bare steel surfaces and piston rings from rust.
Maybe it`s also good to run some 1:25 mixture before putting it into the garage to cover all the crankshaft and conrod bearings with oil.
Closing the carbs and exhausts is also a nice idea to avoid that humid air can go into the engine.

Regarding coolant - if you drain it the steel parts inside the water circuit will start to rust because you have oxygen in the air which is in contact with the steel parts + water drops.
If the cooling circuit is filled with coolant it is a closed system without air and oxygen.
Same happens if the water pump seal is broken and coolant comes into the crankcase => water+air/oxygen = rust
In my opinion it`s better to keep the coolant in the circuit.
Image

To avoid problems with gearboxes which are filled up with water because of failed seals you can drain the oil and keep the drain screw open.
The gearbox parts are anyway covered with oil and the water can go outside of the engine if a seal fails instead of filling up the gearbox.



Regarding wear during engine start up - this is just partly correct.
In case of roller bearings as they are used in 2-strokes you will not have much more wear from starting the bike.
This is more a problem of bearings like they are used in most 4-stroke engines which needs oil pressure to work.
During start up there is no oil pressure and it needs some seconds that the bearings are flooded with oil.
During this time you have wear, afterwards this bearings are "wear free".


To come to an end...
I would put it into such a vacuum bag, put some oil into the cylinders, take the battery out to store it fully loaded and thats it.
Without air you have no problem with humidity and there is also no oxygen left which is needed for rust.
My bikes:
RD500 YPVS 1GE
RD350 YPVS 31K 1985
Honda CBR 1000 RR SC57
Yamaha R1 RN04

podman
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Re: Winter Lay up

#8 Post by podman » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:59 pm

Speed Freak wrote:On the picture it looks more like a failed water pump seal, but this new bikes usually have a groove between water and oil side where the water can go outside the engine if the seal fails.
Lots of good advice here but its a topic much like "which oil",
Ask 10 people and get 10 different answers and some intense debate, you have to pick what works for you, with what envioroment you have to work in.

One thing is for sure, the build of the bikes was pretty bad so anything we can do helps.

Just to clarify, there was no problems with the SRAD in terms of failed seals , no matter how it may have looked like to you in the pics, just an enthusiastic if misguided owner....IMHO

Vin
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Re: Winter Lay up

#9 Post by Vin » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:37 pm

Had a Triumph (2014) come into the shop with a clutch problem, after investigating the engine was coated in this milky solution like podmans SRAD and the moisture had corroded the clutch arm and thrust bearing!

Transpires the owner rarely rode it but started it up every couple of weeks thinking this was okay but didn't get the motor up to full temperature each time and in my opinion this was the cause of the build up.

silverstrom
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Re: Winter Lay up

#10 Post by silverstrom » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:49 pm

Storing 2 strokes is simple. Fill the gas tank with stabilized fuel, pull the battery, and plug the exhaust. Been doing that for 30 years and have never had any problems. Temperatures down to -40C and not once have I had anything negative happen. Now, having said that, this year I have the heated garage, but the storage routine will be exactly the same.

Plugging the exhaust is essential. That is where cold damp air will enter the engine and things can get ugly pretty fast. I've seen rusted bearings, rusted cranks, rusted cylinders, etc. At least one exhaust port is always opened and that is the pathway for cold moist air. If you want to get really serious about storage plug the airbox as well, although I never have.

And, as has been noted already, never start an engine in storage. Once you start any engine it will start making moisture. Very common with cars. People that have a short work commute, say 5 or 10 minutes, end up with milky white sludge in the oil because the oil never gets hot enough to cook off the moisture. So, unless you plan to ride your bike while it's in storage, don't start it. All you're going to do is create problems.

begbie
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Re: Winter Lay up

#11 Post by begbie » Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:30 pm

It's constant temperature that helps, weather it's -10 or + 40. Though warm air has the abillity to hold more vapor.

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Speed Freak
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Re: Winter Lay up

#12 Post by Speed Freak » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:29 am

begbie wrote:It's constant temperature that helps, weather it's -10 or + 40. Though warm air has the abillity to hold more vapor.
Correct.
And if you cool it down the water will condensate somewhere to water drops.
"cold" surfaces like metal parts preferred.

If a Garage is heated - keep the temperature constant.
My garage is not insulated, so I can`t keep it warm the whole winter, so I decided that I will not heat it up.

If you heat it up, the air gets more humid. When you cool it down it can`t keep the same amount of vapor and it will condensate as mentioned before.
If you do this several times you can get a lot of water in places where you don`t want it.
That`s basically how a distillery works :P
My bikes:
RD500 YPVS 1GE
RD350 YPVS 31K 1985
Honda CBR 1000 RR SC57
Yamaha R1 RN04

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Re: Winter Lay up

#13 Post by vma500 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:15 pm

Hey guys ....how about the positive effects of starting up :shock: like lubing all engine parts , warming up the seals etc......, u know ....oil u need to change often , and i don t think that was pure oil in that diesel engine anymore ...mixed with gasoline and other burned residues.....or is ur opinian also that diesels don t use oil :grin:
my bikes :RD500 2X ,RD 350 F2 , RD 350 31K,RD350 4LO,RG500,RG250 WW,RGV250,TZR250 3MA,TZR250 3XV,NS400r,NSr250 mc21,KR1250S,

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Speed Freak
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Re: Winter Lay up

#14 Post by Speed Freak » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:09 pm

White oil is a mixture of water and oil = milk.

Failed water pump seal (oil is 2 weeks old):
Image

In case of the GSXR it seems that it is really possible do get it to this point only by heating it up and cooling it down witout getting the oil hot enough to get the water out again.
My bikes:
RD500 YPVS 1GE
RD350 YPVS 31K 1985
Honda CBR 1000 RR SC57
Yamaha R1 RN04

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