Need Solid Bush!

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Smoker
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Need Solid Bush!

#1 Post by Smoker » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:17 am

No bush jokes. 

Tried to order Solid Bushes for the relay arms (p/n 90380-18140) - but was told the part number is invalid.

Does anyone know the correct part number for the Solid Bushes?

Also need the part numbers for the Relay Arms - doesn't seem to be correct on the fiche.

Thanks!

rd84
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Re: Need Solid Bush!

#2 Post by rd84 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:41 am

Smoker wrote:No bush jokes. 

Tried to order Solid Bushes for the relay arms (p/n 90380-18140) - but was told the part number is invalid.

Does anyone know the correct part number for the Solid Bushes?

Also need the part numbers for the Relay Arms - doesn't seem to be correct on the fiche.

Thanks!
Hi,

I think the numbers are correct - sadly however I believe invalid translates to Invalid or No Longer Available according to my local Yamaha dealer in the UK so I think you will need to look for some used parts.

Cheers
Paul

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Speed Freak
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Re: Need Solid Bush!

#3 Post by Speed Freak » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:38 pm

This bushes will alway be worn out if you get them used.
The steel collars were broken in my bike - very bad construction...

I will do a conversion to needle bearings on my RD instead of this plastic stuff or at least replace the plastic parts by brass parts (would need a little bit more maintenance).
My bikes:
RD500 YPVS 1GE
RD350 YPVS 31K 1985
Honda CBR 1000 RR SC57
Yamaha R1 RN04

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two-stroke-brit
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Re: Need Solid Bush!

#4 Post by two-stroke-brit » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:13 pm

would sintered bronze bushes work ?
She might not be pretty but always a fun ride !!

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Speed Freak
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Re: Need Solid Bush!

#5 Post by Speed Freak » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:09 pm

Yes, if the material has some small air bubbles inside it`s even better because it is like a sponge for the grease.
Bronze+surface hardened high quality steel collars.

But the main problem is how the bushes are mounted to the frame.
I have never seen such massive broken steel collars on a bike before - comes from wrong (bending) load.
My bikes:
RD500 YPVS 1GE
RD350 YPVS 31K 1985
Honda CBR 1000 RR SC57
Yamaha R1 RN04

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Smoker
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Re: Need Solid Bush!

#6 Post by Smoker » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:17 am

Speed Freak wrote:But the main problem is how the bushes are mounted to the frame.
I have never seen such massive broken steel collars on a bike before - comes from wrong (bending) load.
Which part numbers were broken on your bike? Do you know how or why the breakage occurred?

Got any pics?

Image
Last edited by Smoker on Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Speed Freak
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Re: Need Solid Bush!

#7 Post by Speed Freak » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:48 am

22/27 ist the plastic part and 24/29 is the broken steel collar.

I have pictures of the parts, but always with hidden crack.
In the next hour i will start to work a little bit on the bike and i can make a good picture.

The bolt and special nut is pushing the collars to the center of the frame in the mounting area, the outside of the collars is just supported by the "special nut".
So the supporting bolt can move a little bit and bend => wrong load to the collar.
Hard to describe, maybe better with pictures.


This is just what i remember from disassembling the bike, i was never thinking about it in detail because there are a lot of other points to do before.
My bikes:
RD500 YPVS 1GE
RD350 YPVS 31K 1985
Honda CBR 1000 RR SC57
Yamaha R1 RN04

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Speed Freak
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Re: Need Solid Bush!

#8 Post by Speed Freak » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:21 pm

Some pictures:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
My bikes:
RD500 YPVS 1GE
RD350 YPVS 31K 1985
Honda CBR 1000 RR SC57
Yamaha R1 RN04

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Smoker
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Re: Need Solid Bush!

#9 Post by Smoker » Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:08 pm

Thanks for posting those excellent photos!

I see what you mean - the collars are not supported on the ends, where the grease seals are located.

I want to make the collars out of titanium, but maybe they won't be strong enough.

I used all needle bearings on my RZ350 rear suspension, and have been looking for proper needle bearings for these relay arms.

Pretty sure we need (4) 18x24x18mm needle roller bearings, sealed one side, (with the maximum amount of needles).

If anyone can help find an appropriate bearing, please post up.

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Re: Need Solid Bush!

#10 Post by Speed Freak » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:09 pm

The big problem are the supporting collars on the outside.
They have to fit into the frame as good as possible, but they also need to move while tightening the bolt.

I have planned to use 2x HK1812 each side and the original oil seals.
But i also would preferre bearings filled with needles and without cage.

One bearing each side has a disadvantage - you would cover the grease hole in the center.
I want to press in the bearings, push in the collar, fill it with grease from the grease nipples and then push in the seals.

Titanium is not the correct material in this case, also not for the bolt.
The original bolt is 12.9 material - high quality, maybe not without a reason.
As i said, surface hardened good quality steel would be the best, have to ask around for a company that can make them for me...


Maybe someone interested in a group buy?
Would make them much cheaper if i order 20+ collars.
My bikes:
RD500 YPVS 1GE
RD350 YPVS 31K 1985
Honda CBR 1000 RR SC57
Yamaha R1 RN04

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two-stroke-brit
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Re: Need Solid Bush!

#11 Post by two-stroke-brit » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:35 pm

i think rick lance had a kit with stainless hardware.
and as a rule stainless is softer than carbon steel especially if it was case hardened steel.
i would think titanium of say grade 5 would be up to the job.
mark
She might not be pretty but always a fun ride !!

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Re: Need Solid Bush!

#12 Post by Speed Freak » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:35 pm

Titanium grade 5 = 900-1000N/mm² tensile strength
12.9 bolt (i have checked it twice, RD standard bolts are 10.9, this special bolt is 12.9) - 1200N/mm² tensile strength
Usual standard bolts are 8.8 material, means 800N/mm tensile strength.
But i`m talking about the collars for needle bearings.
There you need surface hardness and i think even anodized titanium is too soft or at least the hard surface is not thick enough.

Checked some bearing catalogues:
2 possibilities (no cage, filled up with needles):
2x Koyo DL1812 => possible with 8mm gap between the bearings
2x Koyo DL1816 => possible with no gap between the bearings (grease hole covered)

Only possibility to keep the function of the grease hole AND use the 16mm wide bearings is to use 3mm (or max. 3,5mm) wide sealing rings.
Standard sealing rings are usually 4mm+ for this diameters.
Sealed needle bearings are just available as cage type needle bearings.
My bikes:
RD500 YPVS 1GE
RD350 YPVS 31K 1985
Honda CBR 1000 RR SC57
Yamaha R1 RN04

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Smoker
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Re: Need Solid Bush!

#13 Post by Smoker » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:56 pm

I think the ideal setup would be Single Sealed Needle Roller Bearings, size 18x24x18 or 18x24x19.

Here, on this page from McMaster Carr, you can see the SSNRBs. The inside end is open for grease to go in and the outside end has a rubber seal to keep the grease from leaking out. Then, there's no need for the OEM grease seals - and the bearings could go all the way to the ends of the collars.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#drawn-cup-roll ... gs/=ujhsx5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Image

The problem is that I haven't found this type of bearing in the correct size, yet. If anyone can help with this, it would be greatly appreciated! :smt006

I've seen the 18x24x12 and 18x24x16 bearings, but don't really think those are the best choices. The collars will still be unsupported on the ends, and now, unsupported in the center, as well.

If I can't get a Needle Roller Bearing that I'm happy with, I'll use 18x24x18 or 18x24x19 oilite bushings with a center gap only, or even 18x24x20 oilite bushings with no gap. They probably won't need to be changed/reoiled for many years. I don't think a seal is necessary on the ends when using oilite.

Still considering titanium for the nuts, bolts and collars.

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Re: Need Solid Bush!

#14 Post by jredgrave » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:02 am

Speed Freak wrote:Titanium grade 5 = 900-1000N/mm² tensile strength
12.9 bolt (i have checked it twice, RD standard bolts are 10.9, this special bolt is 12.9) - 1200N/mm² tensile strength
Out of interest where do you find the specifications for this bolt? Do you have the specifications for the bolt at the other end of the links (90110-10081), since it will have the same shear load. Since these are the pivot bolts they will see twice the shear load of the ends, but looking at the relay arms it's hard to imagine they could survive anything that would approach damaging a 12.9 bolt of this size. Of course maybe it was selected due to minimize deflection that causes cracking of bushings. Something that should really be addressed by properly supporting the ends.

Thanks,
jason

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Re: Need Solid Bush!

#15 Post by Smoker » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:35 am

I think Freak is saying the bolt is Grade 12.9 - not the collars. I would imagine, the collars are hardened - but who knows?

The titanium collars I made for the RZ350 are titanium nitride coated, and the RZ500 collars would be coated as well - so surface hardness won't be an issue.

Image
Last edited by Smoker on Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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