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 Post subject: No Spark/ Things dont add up..Help.THZ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:16 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:16 pm
Posts: 79
Location: Ohio
Some back ground on the bike. It was parked for 10 plus years and I did not try to start it when I bought it, but we did kick it and it had spark. Now the bike has been total tear down and rebuild, frame powder coated, engine, overhaul, etc. Now no spark..

What works: PV seams to work on turn on, lights, good grounds

What has been tested: pick coil, mag ohms check ok,

crazy things:
-Neutral light does come on, BUT if I test the ohms of the sender I get high ohms when in Neutral and zero when in gear? The book states that it should zero when in neutral?, but the light works..?
-Both coils test to have 4.5ish ohms on the primary, which is high, and I can not get a reading on the secondary side.( Coils are fairly stable and dont die alot, to have both?)
-disconnected the mag wiring and tried to kick it and had no voltage from the any of the mag..Should I get power EVEN with the mag as a stand along OR does it need some power feed to it.
-Reg/Rec. has power at the red 12 volts, but nothing on the rest of the wires.

other things:no kickstand switch, jumper wire and kill switch tested OK, but has been unplugged to rule out.

I am no problem spending money on parts that I know are bad, BUT I have no idea at this point. I find it hard to understand how a bike that had spark, NOW doesnt and BOTH coils, neutral switch, mag. etc are/maybe all bad now.??.

I must be , OR AM HOPING, I am missing something..
THANKS for your time and help, Dave


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 Post subject: Re: No Spark/ Things dont add up..Help.THZ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:06 am 
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Location: Leicestershire. UK
CDI is common???? But I hope that's not your problem... $$$£££

Double check the sidestand circuit because this could be something that could completely kill all spark???

Are your coils standard???? because the standard HT leads will now, 20 yeats + down the line, be quite brittle. If they're shorting directly to ground, that can also cause problems. But the signs of this are more 'splutter', not completely dead?????
Pick-ups???
Alternator/generator???
Regulator/Rectifier???
How's your battery???

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 Post subject: Re: No Spark/ Things dont add up..Help.THZ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:18 am
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Location: Niagara, Ontario,Canada
I would check the stator wires/connectors for any melting/damage first. Fuses. The 2 harness grounds.
Have you changed any of the electrical parts?

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 Post subject: Re: No Spark/ Things dont add up..Help.THZ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:47 pm 
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Location: Ohio
Grounds are good, The coils car tested OFF the bike and still have bad numbers, Is there a way to test the Mag?


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 Post subject: Re: No Spark/ Things dont add up..Help.THZ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:54 pm 
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Yes, you can test the mag while kicking over...it is very common to all bikes, typically the three yellow wires (not looking at the diagram for the RZ at the moment) but they will produce AC voltage to ground (each individual wire across your voltmeter) not looking at the specific readings you should have but a little search will provide an exact answer. (the key is comparable readings of each...and you have already tested that they don't have a direct short to each other or to ground).

As has been mentioned, a CDI swap would be the quickest answer and the most likely. When I bought my bike it was supposed to only have dirty carbs, but I found out both control units (YPVS & CDI) were out...from what I assume the previous owner having the battery in and out several times and how easy it would be to hook the posts up backwards.

I would not be concerned about your readings for the coil tests, assuming you are checking for spark from both coils, its not likely both are bad.

Grounds are always very important, especially in your situation where you have had it apart...powder coating...etc. (and you had spark previously).

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1985 RZ500
1996 RGV250
2009 Triumph D675
1996 BMW K1100RS
1990 BMW R100GSPD
1986 Yamaha FJ1200
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 Post subject: Re: No Spark/ Things dont add up..Help.THZ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:14 pm 
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Location: Ohio
On the RZ500 I 3 whites at the mag..and while kicking with the plug unplugged and the mag. kinda stand alone I get no voltage on those white wires. I was told that with a mag unplugged it WOULD see voltage while turning/kicking..is that wrong


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 Post subject: Re: No Spark/ Things dont add up..Help.THZ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:41 pm 
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Just pulled out my manual...yes they are "white" wires that you have on the RZ. It only lists a ohm test across the white wires of .4 in the manual. Pick up coil resistance: 112 ohms White/Green to White/Red wires in the stator loom. Source coil: 127 ohm Red to Green wires & 18.8 ohms Brown to Red. Readings will vary with your temp and meter, so a general guide without being to far out of spec

I have used this web source for testing stators on various bikes over the years and it is really good...click on their PDF troubleshooting link. http://www.electrosport.com/technical-r ... ding-guide

The RZ manual also states to "ground the Blue/White lead...this is the Neutral signal and will turn on the indicator on the dash & is required to have this signal to start.

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1985 RZ500
1996 RGV250
2009 Triumph D675
1996 BMW K1100RS
1990 BMW R100GSPD
1986 Yamaha FJ1200
http://www.bikepics.com/members/danetrainer/


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 Post subject: Re: No Spark/ Things dont add up..Help.THZ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:05 pm 
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I've been studying the schematic in the manual...other than the ohms tests the troubleshooting is not helpful unless the bike is running. I believe the brown wire out of the CDI unit should be sending 12v to the stator to excite the source coils. With every thing hooked up and the battery in, ign switch on, are you getting 12v here?

It would be nice to test a running bike to verify, if you don't get to some conclusion I could investigate on my bike to see.

My thought is...even without source voltage you should get some amount of a/c across the white wires coming out of the stator with kicking it over. This is just elementary with coils/magnetism/iron cores. If not then they are shorted to ground, to each other or open circuit. I assume an input of 12v to the source coil excites the stator and puts out significantly more AC voltage (with all things hooked up and back probe the white wires) and I suspect in the 36-50v A/C range. Just guessing amounts here from my limited memory, not working on these things every day any more.

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1985 RZ500
1996 RGV250
2009 Triumph D675
1996 BMW K1100RS
1990 BMW R100GSPD
1986 Yamaha FJ1200
http://www.bikepics.com/members/danetrainer/


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 Post subject: Re: No Spark/ Things dont add up..Help.THZ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:19 pm 
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Location: Ohio
I tested the mag and pick ohms and they are OK, I will look at the brown from the box..I dont think I have anything from the box..Do you remember does or should there be any power to the mag. with just the key on..OR..does the box and mag get power from the mag it self spinning. So the ?? if I turn the key and on SHOULD there be voltage out of the box or at the source coils..from the battery side of the system?

just want to so thanks to all so for..


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 Post subject: Re: No Spark/ Things dont add up..Help.THZ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:08 pm 
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Location: Ohio
Mag. Ohms check ok..NO power at ANY wire at the CDI when the connector unplugged and pins check with a light. Again I thought that the bike would start with a dead bat, just the lights would not work before the mag. makes power.

Also after staring at the circuit diagram..it looks like with just the key on SHOULD the B/W wire from the PV box have power to the CDI..I think that is the link power wire going to the ing. side of the system. I have no power at wire

also I tapped on the PV box..not hard and the PV motor cycled like I turned the key off and then back on


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 Post subject: Re: No Spark/ Things dont add up..Help.THZ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:15 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:44 pm
Posts: 247
Location: Sweden - Stockholm
thunder938 wrote:
I tested the mag and pick ohms and they are OK, I will look at the brown from the box..I dont think I have anything from the box..Do you remember does or should there be any power to the mag. with just the key on..OR..does the box and mag get power from the mag it self spinning. So the ?? if I turn the key and on SHOULD there be voltage out of the box or at the source coils..from the battery side of the system?

just want to so thanks to all so for..



I tested my CDI and I got 12volts out from the box with just the ignition to ON.
//Jeppe


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 Post subject: Re: No Spark/ Things dont add up..Help.THZ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:15 pm 
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Jeppe500 THZ which wire? just one? Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: No Spark/ Things dont add up..Help.THZ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:36 pm 
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The brown wire feeds 12v into the YPVS control unit. I am concerned that your tapping on it and it cycling reveals an internal fault. (possible cold solder joint on the pcb board). 12v should be sent to the CDI unit on the B/W wire. As for power to the source coils from the CDI, I'm speculating that it is supplied by the brown wire. You would need all connectors plugged in to do these tests...back probing the individual wire in the connector.

_________________
1985 RZ500
1996 RGV250
2009 Triumph D675
1996 BMW K1100RS
1990 BMW R100GSPD
1986 Yamaha FJ1200
http://www.bikepics.com/members/danetrainer/


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 Post subject: Re: No Spark/ Things dont add up..Help.THZ
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:05 am 
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I also checked some older posts here when I was troubleshooting mine years ago.

Smurph stated that the CDI runs directly off the mag and doesn't require the battery. The Ignition switch, kill switch,
neutral switch and side stand switch will short to ground to keep it from firing. So you can unplug the Ignition switch,
kill switch and the sidestand control unit (both neutral and sidestand switch feed into this). Then give it try.

Also, I had found an area of my wiring loom where it passed over the top radiator mount that was worn through shorting a
wire. Also, there have been reports of a broken wire from the pick-up or stator wires, if you have good ohm readings and no
short to ground on them, you should be ok.

_________________
1985 RZ500
1996 RGV250
2009 Triumph D675
1996 BMW K1100RS
1990 BMW R100GSPD
1986 Yamaha FJ1200
http://www.bikepics.com/members/danetrainer/


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 Post subject: Re: No Spark/ Things dont add up..Help.THZ
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:10 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:29 am
Posts: 476
Location: New zealand
i had no spark on a bike i just got from japan

did all the ohms checks as you have done

then got sick of testing things . took the cdi off my other bike . and it started first kick

that would be the first thing i would try . borrow or buy a cdi and see how you go

and when it was running i found the regulator was putting out 20v . so that could of been the reason the cdi went south


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