RZ/RD 350 & Misc. 2-Stroke Tech BBS

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 8:07 pm 
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Gus you build a pretty frame but you act and spell like a 5 year old. Go back from whence ye came.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:35 am 
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Lol...This is a fun read. Just like the races... smack talk ! Put up or shut up. Nothing's funnier than when a perceived underdog wins a race vs a potentially better developed, researched opponent. It happens likley at every racetrack around the globe. Low buck , building by trial and error on the racetrack. It's all good.
From my point of view, I could really not care too much what a few folks have developed on design and theory on bikes that don't really apply to the basic RZ. Don't get me wrong it's interesting and worth reading, but it's just that reading for me. I don't know about many of you, but I'm not entertaining the idea of starting developing a state of the art cutting edge, mathematically perfect RZ 350..I'm happy with a fast dependable motor utilizeing perhaps a newer cylinder design...I'm okay with that..I'm easily satisfied I guess.
I could be wrong. But I don't ever remember even one contributing post of substance by Thiel or Fritz Wobbly or Neels here on this site for this Rz350/500 community I've read the same failure stories of some of their projects and ventures as well. Some of their machines are Apple's to Orange's vs the design of RZ which has design limitations that cannot be overcome, that's for sure. I obviously respect their work and others like Scott Clough for example he did my Daytona crank, however he lives about 2 miles from me now, He's just a average dude, just like most others, he made a good name for himself by being dependable, honest and building/racing many, many variations of trial and error designs over 40 years, Turner/ TSR had a big impact on many guys from this era and it showed.
Most are blue collar, average Joe hot rodders no black art, no gurus..just trade educated hard trial n error work.
It's all good, in my book, anyone who wants to contribute to the fun and hobby of the RZ I welcome their opinion, as long as there not insulting or condescending here to others in a mean spirited detrimental manner. When some start slagging the "old" 2 stroke guys that's where my respect for them instantly ceases. Prove your merit my proving your ideas on a real live RZ350/500 motor, not by trying to make oneself look better at the expense of others who can't defend themselves.
Each of then guys in this particular post are fun and intresting to read, each have chosen a path to follow that may work for them, each have had failures and sucssess, it's all good and fun to read. Run what ya brung and have fun ... that's all that matters.
Sure, I'm a little biased, but I've had motors built by the "old" guys and their thinking from the past...but my motors Gary Shumanke @Spec 2 and Harry Klemm were fast if not faster and proved far more dependable than most I came across. My friends have Rob Selvy built motors..pure "old school" They have proven bulletproof and often the fastest. So could they be better? I suppose maybye? .. but it really doesn't matter...does it.

Keep the fun coming guys, and post your 1st hand results, good or bad.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 3:27 am 
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I'm with you on this one David. I honestly didn't know how to react when I started reading this post. It's not like most posts on this forum. To me, it's not a "my way or the highway" place.

I can tell you what I believe to be the best way to build these bikes, with a bit of cred behind me, but I'm no expert, as my RZ350 experience is limited to the last 3 seasons of riding them. My motorcycling past is much lengthier, as is my 2 stroke experience, and racing background.
These bikes are fairly simple, steel framed, easily repaired, economical to run, and require some thought and diligence to tune well. AND there used to be many in Canada to get your hands on. That has changed. They are still around, but so many have been shipped out to other countries.

Most people that own them are just happy to run them. Many ride them fast and enjoy them for what they are. Other then the die hard RZ riders from the past, very few know how they should run, including most mechanics...and the parts ordering, don't get me started on that up here in Canada, it's a joke. Everything refers to the US model and there is nothing on the F2. Most behind the counter don't even know what they are, and hate looking stuff up for them because there is nothing but F1 stuff to look for.

Restorations and modifications are another thing all together. It's one thing to modify the bike to improve it's performance and something totally different to revamp the bike with modern front ends, fat wheels and change the bike's behaviour totally. People like to play, and build the fastest, best bike that they think they can. My question after that fact is, do they ever enjoy the thing like they should? It becomes a garage queen, or show girl, but is it a commuter any more?
Two guys that I really enjoy reading about are MK, Martin from Germany who develops and races an RZ350 and Mark Morrow from the US who races very seriously in the states. You can follow Mark on Facebook. These guys will help you out, very willingly when confronted. Both are great enthusiasts and obvious fans of the RZ.

I'm getting a little sick of the nature of this post, but still reading the input. Everyone that I've met here are great people. With that in mind, I can tolerate a bit of $h!t. Keep it coming.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:59 am 
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I am looking forward to racing t Rex or the Jan Bros. maybe mid ohio? Or do they not have anything to race? I'm almost 60 maybe their to old.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:40 am 
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I'm almost 60 too. My racing these days is limited however I plan on racing the 28th Annual DC Vet Homcoming @ High Point in Mt. Morris PA. Saturday we'll run my '81 YZ465 in Vintage class. Sunday 55+ with the '03 CRF450R. Will we be seeing you there?

I believe JanBros is from Europe. Belgium I think.......you could meet him at Spa Francorchamps. Now wouldn't that be a blast?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:05 pm 
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Well I've generally wanted to avoid this blather but at the end I will add this.

Racing 27 years multiple national titles oh how fabulous i am :smt015 . . . (on unfeasibly small motorcycles in my small Pacific nation), but I figured I'd absorbed Graham Bells book and moved on from there with like countless run on the dynojet I have access to trying everything I could. I knew a fair bit more than most I thought. Without being a dick about it of course.

What I didn't figure on was that a lot of my experiments were myopic and conclusions drawn were not absolutes if you changed other factors. Reading posts of Wobbly and Frits and occasionally Jan when he shows up on KB were eye opening. Stuff we were doing as a matter of course were all wrong for twin and triple ex ports and barely ok for single ports. Simple stuff like putting a radius on the chamber to squish junction. I mean, why wouldn't you? the factory did. I could go on and on with how dim I was.

My point being there is still much to learn out there if you get motivated and be prepared to have you known truths sunk.

. . . Or just practice your wheelies and try find the best smelling 2 stroke oil.
(I'm in a transition phase. I think it might be Castrol TTS) .

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:13 pm 
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Gus the crank guy wrote:
I am looking forward to racing t Rex or the Jan Bros. maybe mid ohio? Or do they not have anything to race? I'm almost 60 maybe their to old.


in 2 months I'll be 50, and my racing days on track are over, still do a trackday from time to time with my KR1S.

still racing though, these days it's MX with mopeds. More fun, les pain when you crash, moped costs next to nothing and I can still experiment/play with 2-strokes :smt004

So no money to come to the states, but your welcome to join me at Francorchamps. Anybody should once in their life, as it truly is the best track in the world .


as for the tone of this topic, I personaly feel my tone is quite moderate. all I say is this : one can not make a claim without explaining the why or the circumstances in which one came to that conclusion. One can mention one's findings, but you don't go calling someone else stupid if he does not agree with you and gives an explanation as to why. the one does not even try to discuss the explanation, he only plays the man, not the subject of the discussion. I find that very sad; especialy for a 60 year old who should know better. At least I have the excuse of still being young :smt033

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:24 am 
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This relates to us all, sooner than later too🙄
I was in a Barnes & Noble last year and had a stack of Motorcycle publications I was reading through, and this old man who later told me he was 85 walked up and said I notice your reading about bikes...I said sure am, love em...Then he had a huge smile on his face and he went on to tell me he was a professional roadracer through the Late 50s until the mid 80s, raced in Europe/S. America / Isle of Man/ Daytona etc...Then he broke out his I Pad, and showed me numerous photos 1st of his departed wife, then of him racing and his bikes. (At least he had his priorities right, wife 1st, just a stand up man. His bikes were BSAs,Matchless/MVs/Norton's and Vincents/Kawasaki triples and Honda's etc... He said he was/is an Aviator as well and owns several vintage P51 and a Stearman Bi Plane...He said he still flys, "with friends" rides every week and goes out on tracks several times a year..on his get this...his Vincent ! Same one in the photos he showed me. He's had her for 50 years!
I know when you say he was 85 but looked 60..that's sounds one & the same to alot of folks,especially the under 30 crowd...but seriously he acted and looked 25 years younger than he was.
HOPE ✌️

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:26 am 
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Ha I was going to post before:
What a lot of old coots we are!
Jan, enjoy and celebrate your 50th. Mine was a couple of months ago. Still think I'm 30. Like I know I'm not 20.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:17 am 
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Well, I'm sad.

I was hoping to see an old school vs new school RZ showdown on the track.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:58 am 
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Smoker wrote:
Well, I'm sad.

I was hoping to see an old school vs new school RZ showdown on the track.


you'll never see that, as the cylinders of an RD/RZ are too close to each other. you can change whatever you want, the transfer tunnels will always be oldschool and bad.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:20 am 
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Don't some of the monoblock Banshee cylinders improve on that?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:22 am 
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Oops double posted somehow.......

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:14 pm 
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T.RexRacing wrote:
Don't some of the monoblock Banshee cylinders improve on that?


Image


they are a tiny bit better, but still crap as they are still almost straight up with an almost "90° super tight bend" just before the ports.
At Aprilia, Jan Thiel was responsible for cylinder development, and he tested all stuff posible. transfer tunnels should have a constant inner radius for the Coanda effect : the mixture clinging onto the inner radius. In straight up tunnels, the mixture does not cling on to the inner wall, but shoots up to the outer wall : through the bottom of the port flows much less than it could with decent tunnels, and it causes turbulence where you don't want it. The outer wall is less important, as the mixture must follow it's path.
another positive effect of mixture clinging onto the inner wall, is that it flows directly over the top of the piston at TDC and even clinging onto it, aiding big time in cooling the piston.

it's all out there on the net, you just have to look for it in the right spaces.

http://www.50c.nl/Archief%20Ton%20Kooym ... index.html
at the bottom of this page, you find drawings of the aprilia racing cylinders, with all details and measurements.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:34 pm 
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Thanks.

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