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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:49 am 
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The Incredible story continues? His records are now to numerous to easily list but the clear basics are.....

1.) He's only 24 years old.
2.) Unless he pulls a Rossi, & crashes out thus gifting the title to his rival, he's gonna be a 6x world champion. Possibly DNF or 11th place lower... doubtful.
3.) He's only been racing GP level for 10 years and will hold 6 world titles in all classes.
We all knew he was special..but Perhaps not to this level, and he's raced aruguably against the most skilled and talented field of riders in the modern era of GP racing..and he's defeated them all.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:48 am 
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Before Marquez came along, Rossi, Pedrosa and Lorenzo were described as the 'aliens'. They always filled the podium and everyone else was racing for fourth. Things got shaken up with Casey Stoner but he didn't stick around. Now with Marquez, we still have the aliens but he is consistently beating them. He will win until he no longer wants to.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:05 am 
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I could just rename the post title to 7 world championships.
He did it again.....easily too..
What's amazing is he crashed 25 x this year!! and still effortlessly won the title!!...the kid has a God watching over him. He's also only 25 years old can he win 5 more world titles? So far it looks easy for him....
Still a Rossi fan.....but Marc is a new era.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:54 pm 
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He is amazing. I do think that if he keeps bashing into others and doing stupid things his career could go off the rails. Others have been harshly punished for far less than he is getting away with. Star power does have its privileges.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:45 am 
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I'd like to see how long any of the current crop of "GODS" and "ALIENS" stay upright on a 180+ Horsepower 2-stroke without a computer fixing all their mistakes.
I'll take Roberts, Doohan, Rainey, or Lawson reruns over these computer jockeys any day.
That said, it is cool to watch the elbow curb-feelers.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:11 pm 
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brrrappp wrote:
I'd like to see how long any of the current crop of "GODS" and "ALIENS" stay upright on a 180+ Horsepower 2-stroke without a computer fixing all their mistakes.
I'll take Roberts, Doohan, Rainey, or Lawson reruns over these computer jockeys any day.
That said, it is cool to watch the elbow curb-feelers.


Well you have one current alien who did race on a 500cc 2 stroke, and he also won the last 500cc crown.

The 500s were awesome, but the 100 4 strokes are just far far faster, some courses are almost 1 minute faster with the new technology.
180 h.p. 1000rpm powerbands vs 280-300 h p. bikes with power everywhere.
Would have loved to watch a evolution of the 500cc 2 stroke would have been a brilliant machine. A GP rider back in that era gad a relatively short career , bikes we're just too vicious injeries prevailed over almost all of the champions..I can't think if one whom was not serioully injured or forever damaged.
Lawson, Spencer, Schwantz, Doohan, Rainey, Roberts, and many others are forever mangled.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:44 am 
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Questo vecchio rz wrote:
brrrappp wrote:
I'd like to see how long any of the current crop of "GODS" and "ALIENS" stay upright on a 180+ Horsepower 2-stroke without a computer fixing all their mistakes.
I'll take Roberts, Doohan, Rainey, or Lawson reruns over these computer jockeys any day.
That said, it is cool to watch the elbow curb-feelers.


Well you have one current alien who did race on a 500cc 2 stroke, and he also won the last 500cc crown.

The 500s were awesome, but the 100 4 strokes are just far far faster, some courses are almost 1 minute faster with the new technology.
180 h.p. 1000rpm powerbands vs 280-300 h p. bikes with power everywhere.
Would have loved to watch a evolution of the 500cc 2 stroke would have been a brilliant machine. A GP rider back in that era gad a relatively short career , bikes we're just too vicious injeries prevailed over almost all of the champions..I can't think if one whom was not serioully injured or forever damaged.
Lawson, Spencer, Schwantz, Doohan, Rainey, Roberts, and many others are forever mangled.


you said "some courses are almost 1 minute faster with the new technology."
Name a course that hasn't been significantly altered where the lap time from a GP is nearly a minute faster with a late model 4-stroke VS the last generation of 2-Strioke 500's. I haven't done the actual research but I find it hard to believe that you can take a minute or close to a minute off the lap-time of tracks that are only 3 or 4 miles in length.
For instance, Silverstone has only been in the current configuration since 2011.
Sepang, Malaysia appears to be about the same loop for an apples to apples comparison:
At Malaysian GP 4/18/1999 Fastest Lap during the race 2'07.213 (Mick Doohan)
At Malaysian GP 10/29/2017 Fastest Lap during the race 2'12.084 (Andrea Dovizioso)
At Malaysian GP 10/29/2018 Fastest Lap during the race 2'00.762 (Alex Rins)

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:03 pm 
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Yea, the tires haven't improved all that much.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:11 pm 
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I'm aware of comparative lap times from the two eras.
The larger 1000cc 4 strokes are anywhere from +2- +4 seconds a lap quicker than the last of the 500cc 2 strokes of 20 years ago.

The quoted Malayasia circut lap times are incorrect. In no way is the KR Jr. Suzuki RGV500 quicker than a new generation machine, no contest whatsoever. It would get decimated.

Over a 20-25 laps @ race distance the
2- 4+ second a lap disadvantage dclearly shows the disparity.
Crazy to think but fact is, Modern off the showroom superbikes set up for track duty would challenge and likley could defeat a period YZR or NSR 500 on various circuts.
The old Formula USA. race series of 25 years ago proved without question that big displacement GSXRs and FZRs could defeat the 500cc 2 strokes on occasion the tires of the day we're the heavy 4 strokes achellies heel, with today's amazing rubber it's a given real competition.

All things being equal, if technology continued on the 500 cc 2 stroke, I'm sure the gap would be narrowed down. Hard to say,and a question left forever unanswered.
Honda's 4 stroke RCV is a 2+ million dollar "per bike" tour de force with linear power...amazing machine..even if it's a 4 stroke...lol

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:39 pm 
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Questo vecchio rz wrote:
I'm aware of comparative lap times from the two eras.
The larger 1000cc 4 strokes are anywhere from +2- +4 seconds a lap quicker than the last of the 500cc 2 strokes of 20 years ago.

The quoted Malayasia circut lap times are incorrect. In no way is the KR Jr. Suzuki RGV500 quicker than a new generation machine, no contest whatsoever. It would get decimated.


I kinda feel like I'm trolling here but the fact is that those Lap times are quoted directly from the MOTOGP web site. I tried to find a track layout that was nearly the same from that time period.

And, no, a modified "off the showroom" super-sport bike would not challenge a works 500 GP bike from 1999-2001 on a track that has turns. Maybe at the dragway or around a super-speedway like Talladaga but not at Silverstone or Laguna or any other gp style circuit.

The reasons GP moved to 4-stroke are many.
1) Marketing. Race what you sell.
2) Laptimes of WSB were getting close enough to GP that there was competition for fan-base and talented riders.
3) COSTS & Sponsors: Probably the number one factor. The grid was thin with Honda and Yamaha racing against themselves most of the time. Spending obscene amounts of cash to prop-up private teams that were just getting in the way. This was not something sponsors liked doing.
4) Safety. Top riders that are capable of staying upright and healthy for an entire season are hard to find. The extended powerband and shorter learning curve of those diesels, increased rider life expectancy.
5) Technology that was not transferable to the street or other forms of racing. Not being able to use lessons learned in GP for WSB was a killer.
6) Restrictive rules that were attempting to level the field. Another development killer.

The American Superbike series and World Superbike series were pretty much "works bikes" and had very little in common with anything you or a well funded team could assemble off the showroom. For instance, we don't have the luxury of hand-picking rods from the production line that are at the limit of the factory spec so as to pass tech while offering a slightly higher displacement.

Fancy rider electronic aids, better suspension, better understanding of frame flex. Lastly more horsepower. The amount of power is constantly choked by the computer. The chassis and tires can't handle the power unless the track has a giant straight. Fans like to see passes into and out of corners. Watching an overtake on a long straight is boring.
Bottom line:
Lap times are 4-10 seconds lower today for motogp because of 20 years of racing development. End of story.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:19 pm 
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brrrappp wrote:
we don't have the luxury of hand-picking rods from the production line that are at the limit of the factory spec so as to pass tech while offering a slightly higher displacement.


this kinda ruined a pretty good post.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:37 pm 
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JanBros wrote:
brrrappp wrote:
we don't have the luxury of hand-picking rods from the production line that are at the limit of the factory spec so as to pass tech while offering a slightly higher displacement.


this kinda ruined a pretty good post.


I guess I had my head stuck in SuperSport Gear while the Superbike guys were blasting past me.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:50 pm 
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Oh it's all good! But .......
Why would you claim that a modern 2018-19 superbike would not challenge a 2 decade old GP bike???

Especially considering the fact that 1988-91 Suzuki GSXRs and FZRs we're beating Kenny Roberts Formula USA YZR 500s on occasion 25 years ago
.
I don't need stats...I was there and watched it 1st hand ...just saying.

Late 1980s 150 -170 h.p.heavily modified "production" superbikes with single compound slicks and 400+ lbs coupled with no electronics at all...not even slipper clutches. Just big bore engines burning,methonol and even nitrous oxide on occasion
Now we have 190-200 h.p. (production showroom) superbikes with every imaginable electronic aid and Ulta sticky multi compound tires....
Rose colored spectacles, give a great view, but reality is what it is. and lap times are irrefutable.
I've been habitually following GP racing since 1978 in person and from afar, read
just about everything I get time too even and personally know several 500cc tuners/fabricators and a few AMA mechanic tuners as well, we've had this discussion as it comes up every so often...it's pretty well accepted.
Todays technology is impressive ,It's a massive generational change, & changed everything we know about racing or just plain performance sport bike riding.
Today in 2018 we can go out and buy 700 + h.p. cars from our local Chevy and Ford and Dodge dealers and go grocery shopping.
My 500llb 1989 FZR100 did a factual documented 170 mph,and Low 10 sec 1/4 mile...Now we can buy 390 lb 200 h.p. and possibly 200 mph bikes and join the cars at the grocery store.

Believe what you'd like, it's all good! I believe we faked the moon landings...just sayin :smt005 :smt005 Guess you could say We agree to disagree...it's all good :smt039 :smt023 :smt039 :smt023

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:33 pm 
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I don't have your historical acumen when it comes to RoadRacing. My experience was limited to managing a dealer supported LRRS/CCS Super Sport team in the early 90's and watching GP's on tape delay from my easy chair in my air conditioned living room. I did get to meet Scott Russel and Jamie James and I did get a meeting with Mel Harris, once.....
So I searched for Formula USA articles.....here's a quote that I found enlightening.
Credit: Backmarker: Formula USA Racing April 5, 2012
"In the end, Roberts only ran the YZR500s for one full season, in 1991. Looking back on it, Roberts might have taken the wind out of the class’ sails by doing so. Maybe fans and rivals realized that no matter what crazy hot-rodding you did to any production-based four-stroke, it wouldn’t be as fast as a ‘regular’ factory GP bike. Maybe that tarnished the class."
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2012/04/a ... sa-racing/

And, just so we are clear, when you are saying Superbike you are saying Show-Room-model that we can purchase, right?
You said-- "Crazy to think but fact is, Modern off the showroom superbikes set up for track duty would challenge and likley could defeat a period YZR or NSR 500 on various circuts."

That leaves us with what your idea of race prep is. Spending Less than $50k on race prep? I'm still staying with the 1999-2001 GP500.
Let's put Rossi down as the controlling wrist and give him his last Championship 2-stroke 500 VS the 2019 GSX-R.
I think it might be close but a hands-down defeat? No way.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:03 am 
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We can call it at that, perhaps not with Rossi...lol
Machinery is it does to men it is hard to compare eras and some categories
As far as production bikes go, just the simple fact that new bikes are so utterly capable of being near or at GP level performance is simply breathtaking and amazing, and that's a simple pro level track day prep. Would it beat a GP bike? Not sure...but it would be very close, my $ would be on the street bike.
A WSBK superbike hands down would decimate a GP500 no question. And that's with the new WSBK firnat too, back in the 90s and early 2000s Front grid WBSK bikes we're costing 300k, more in some cases.
AMA bikes if the period, the final kast fasp of great bikes Mladin and Spies, the Yoshimura bikes had parts from Japan than no one else had...anywhere. bikes we're stunning for their day, When Spies went to WBSK, That factory Yamaha R1
easily cost 500k..money was no ibject then.
Rich Oliver and Mike Smith ,Kurt Hall and a few others in the Formula USA bikes would easily out accelerate the Roberts 500 YZRs, wasn't even close. But it was the light weight of the YZRs that prevailed in most races.they would reel in the heavy,sliding Ill handling 4 strokes with the obvious corner speed of a pedigreed Gp machine.
Still impressive for a relatively low buck $10,000 -$15,000 (all in) GSXR /FZR. They just weighed far too much for the tires of the day..the tires would rarley hold up, but when they did the mighty YZRs were humbled a few times.
But now that's just my point....it's night and day.todays superbikes are as advanced to 90s superbikes as 80/90s superbikes were to 1970 CB750s..no chance, no way ,no day.
My friend has a RC30 and a OWO1 Yanaha, my 96 GSXR 750 is far quicker road or track..
But....I'll take this beauties any day given the choice, same for a YZR,NSR,TZ etc... Love the 2 strokes!!!

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Banshee (Baja) race bike, Lonestar A-Arms, dual 9" L.E.Ds, FMF, Toomey,19cc domes, IMS tank, run flats.
96 GSXR SRAD, Future Yoshimura Lucky Strike rep.
85 custom Tri-Z
RZ/YZR track bike(project)
86 VFR750 RC24 Merkel replica (project)


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