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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:05 pm 
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I guess my overall point is the lap times have not decreased nearly as much as one would expect over the last 20 years. In fact, the lap times at comparable circuits are kind of static for the last 10 years. So I will concede the point you are currently making- A New stock 1000 in race trim will beat an old 1999/2001 500GP bike- this is quite possible maybe even probable.

I personally tend to believe that with current tires a '99-2001 500gp bike with a top rider would still rise to the occasion and demonstrate, at least for a lap or two, that we have hit a wall in reducing lap times.

Exceptional pre-traction control Racers like Rossi, Rainey, Roberts, Doohan, Lawson raced to within a few seconds of current day lap times without the computer aided engine and traction management systems of today. If you were to turn off the computer aids how many current racers could turn the current lap times? (2 maybe?) How many would survive a racing season? I would say the new bikes are significantly easier to ride fast, making them safer.
as a side note, I found that the current 2018 hot-shoe in SuperSport 600 turned a laptime during SuperPole at Phillip very close to Rossi's fast lap in the race at Phillip Island 2001. That's impressive!

Phillip Island
10/28/2018 Valentino ROSSI 1'29.879
10/23/2016 Valentino ROSSI 1'29.726
10/20/2013 Valentino ROSSI 1'28.868
10/17/2010 Valentino ROSSI 1'31.072
10/05/2008 Valentino ROSSI 1'30.284

10/14/2001 Valentino ROSSI 1'33.287

2018 SuperSport
Lucas Mahias FRA GRT Yamaha YZF-R6 1'33.160

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:25 pm 
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Questo vecchio rz wrote:
My friend has a RC30 and a OWO1 Yanaha, my 96 GSXR 750 is far quicker road or track..


Same rider, same track? Or you are riding your disposable suzy bike and he is riding his $50+k museum piece? :smt002

Don't mean to hijack the thread...

Both your bikes make similar power and weigh about the same.

I had a 2007 750 that I bought new, was super shiney, akra/ohlinsed-out, and customed tuned to 130rwhp. Probably had well over 20 grand into it. I sold it and, while I was getting another bike ready, bought a 2005 750, unknown forks, too-hard penske, maybe flash tuned(??) with a beat up hindle... for $1500.

I dropped 2 seconds a lap. Instantly. :smt023

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:25 pm 
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Phillip Island.

1999 Kenny Roberts JR did a 1:32.7 on an RGV500.
2013 Jorge Lorenzo did a 1:27.8 on a YZR-M1.

5 seconds.

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Last edited by Yellow and Black RZ on Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:13 pm 
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Yellow and Black RZ wrote:
Phillip Island.

1999 Kenny Roberts JR did a 1:32.7 on an RGV500.
3 years later Jorge Lorenzo did a 1:27.8 on a YZR-M1.

5 seconds.


That would be impressive since Jorge Lorenzo was 15 years old in 2002 and riding a 125.

Phillip Island 2002
Jorge LORENZO 1'40.637 (riding a 125cc Derbi)
Phillip Island 2012
Jorge LORENZO 1'30.703 Best lap during the MotoGPrace.
Jorge LORENZO 1'27.899 Lap record set in qualifying Oct 5 2013

------------------
2002 WSBK Phillip Island Fastest lap during race-2 March 24, 2002
BAYLISS 1'33.773
EDWARDS 1'33.700
XAUS 1'33.735
HODGSON 1'34.234
BOSTROM 1'34.000

2002 Phillip Island MotoGP Oct 20, 2002 Fastest lap during the race
Valentino ROSSI 1'32.233
Alex BARROS 1'32.377
Garry McCOY 1'32.877
Daijiro KATO 1'33.015
Jurgen vd GOORBERGH 1'33.016

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:35 am 
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Doh. Honest mistake.

5 seconds is a lot on a track.
Practically an eternity.

IMO half that is the evolution of tires.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Yellow and Black RZ wrote:
Doh. Honest mistake.

5 seconds is a lot on a track.
Practically an eternity.

IMO half that is the evolution of tires.


13 to 20 years is an eternity in racing development!

Firstly, I have to say I have never, ever seen better racing than the Assen 2018 MotoGP....

I love the mental masturbation of pitting the best of the past against the best of the present. I have always felt that the very top level competitors of the past would rise to the occasion in any time period. Kenny Roberts Sr, Freddie Spencer, Mick Doohan, Wayne Rainey, Kevin Schwantz, Eddie Lawson, Max Biaggi and several others would find a way to the front in todays GP if transported forward at their peak and given today's technology. I am not as positive about the best of today going backward in time but there are absolute exceptions like Marquez and Rossi. Desire, dedication, and gifts of talent transcend time.

As for the race-bikes themselves, time marches on and race development is unkind to stagnation.

2013 seems to have been a special year either for tires or racing conditions at Phillip Island. No rider has broken that 2013 Phillip Island lap record.
The 2001 2-stroke era GP500 riders raced to high 1'32 and low 1'33 lap times during the race.
The 2018 MotoGP lap times during the race were low 1'29 to mid 1'30s for the top 5 riders.

The difference of about 3 seconds over 20 years of development, while not insignificant, is quite thin.
If you cut that 3 seconds by half due to tire technology alone, it puts the top 2001 500's near the back in qualifying but still in the race!

Now imagine what lap times for the 2-stroke would look like if the 2-stroke were given a displacement boost- (for example see Daytona 200 from 1983). What if the 2-stroke had the benefit of current electronics, suspension or brakes? Due to my age, I tend to favor the 2-stroke over all else. i think GP Racing suffered a huge loss with the rules change in 2002.

I wonder if the lap time barrier will be significantly reduced by adoption of electric powerplants? Imagine the engine/traction management possibilities for racers with max torque available from 0 to WFO throttle position.
Now, imagine if you will, a nearly silent pack of 7 racers passing the stands in tight racing formation. Will it be nearly as exciting without the sound of an angry, fire-breathing, internal combustion engine? Will fans fondly remember the smell of ozone and hot electrical components in the same way as race fuel and burnt oil? Time will tell.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:30 am 
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Yellow and Black RZ wrote:
Phillip Island.

1999 Kenny Roberts JR did a 1:32.7 on an RGV500.
2013 Jorge Lorenzo did a 1:27.8 on a YZR-M1.

5 seconds.


5 seconds is an eternity in MotoGP. These days the qualifying times for the top 20 bikes are within 1.5 seconds.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:37 pm 
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Hooligan wrote:
Yellow and Black RZ wrote:
Phillip Island.

1999 Kenny Roberts JR did a 1:32.7 on an RGV500.
2013 Jorge Lorenzo did a 1:27.8 on a YZR-M1.

5 seconds.


5 seconds is an eternity in MotoGP. These days the qualifying times for the top 20 bikes are within 1.5 seconds.


Yes, but the gap isn't really 5 seconds!

IN 2017 and in 2018, No one turned lap times below 1'29.6 during the entire Phillip Island RACE. So the difference is really 3 to 3.5 seconds from 1999 to 2018. And if, as the previous post suggested, half of the difference is tires alone.....That would put a 500GP bike with current rubber in the back row of the starting grid at Phillip Island in 2018. Nearly two decades of advancing racing technology has not significantly reduced laptimes so much as it has leveled the playing field among bikes and riders and increase rider safety.
At bigger tracks like Sepang, where the increased horsepower shows itself, the comparison is a dead issue. The new bikes run away with it down the straights. No argument from me there. I only entered into this discussion to counter the opinion that the newest STOCK Sport bikes setup in racing trim or even MotoGP bikes would crush, kill and destroy a 500GP bike. Or that the racers themselves are somehow superhuman. The lap times at tracks where the two generations can be directly compared would indicate that there is a less superiority than one might expect after nearly 20 years.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:09 pm 
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Except you are conflating the best riders with the guys at the back of the pack.

Your assertion that a 500 with modern tires would be on the back row requires that bike to be ridden by Rossi or the like. This is not an apples to apples comparison.

Put the guy on the back row of the grid on a 500 with modern tires and he'd be a further 3-5 seconds off the already slower pace he is capable of.

If we took someone off the last couple of rows and put them on Marquez' bike, they would not end up on the front row of the grid.

When the 500's and the 4-strokes did run together the 500's got their asses handed to them in a BIG way. I suspect that situation would be even worse today.

I like 2-strokes as much as the next guy but there is no argument that the 4-strokes aren't vastly superior race bikes. MotoGP is a sport of tenths of a second. 3-5 seconds is an eternity.

The 2-strokes had their time. They underwent decades of development and were raised to a very high level but the first time they came up against a modern 4-stroke they were doomed.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:26 pm 
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Let me repeat, I only entered into this discussion to counter the opinion that the newest STOCK Sport bikes setup in racing trim or even MotoGP bikes would crush, kill and destroy a 500GP bike.

No conflation. I think When I say that a GP500 from 1999-2001 with 2018 tires would qualify on the back row in 2018 is valid.
I am comparing the best riders and best bikes of the times. That is by design.
To make any comparison valid you need a control of some kind.
We have two and one is stronger than the other.
Control number one is the track. Phillip Island is the same layout. Wind conditions and temp might skew the times but this the closest thing we have to a static control.
Control number 2 is more variable. A qualified top level racer.
For this example we actually have one very good rider named Valentino Rossi that rode in both times. He may have lost a step since 2001 but he still finishes in the top 5.

So the comparison is this: How does the performance of a top level GP500 compare to a top level MotoGp Motorcycle?
If we put Rossi on a 2-Stroke GP500 bike against Rossi on a 2018 MotoGP at the same track we have actual race day numbers:
10/14/2001 Valentino ROSSI 1'33.287 GP500
10/28/2018 Valentino ROSSI 1'29.879 MotoGP
3.4 seconds and 17 years separate them.

If we make a wild assumption that current-day tires account for a decrease in lap times of approximately 1.5 seconds--
and we know that Combined Q1 Q2 session Qualifying Lap times at Phillip Island were from a low of 1'29.2 to a high of 1'32.6---
We can estimate that Valentino Rossi, riding a 2001 500cc 2-stroke fitted with 2018 tires would be QUALIFIED and on the back row...
Yes, he would most likely lose the race by a sizable margin. But that sidesteps the fact that after 20 years and untold millions of dollars in racing development, we have yet to see a game changing break-through in motorcycle handling and thereby reduced lap tmes.
FYI: there is a 6 second GAP at Sepang 2001 to 2018 Rossi to Rossi. That is 80 percent a pure horsepower advantage.
Finally, let's not forget that the 100% displacement advantage of the 4-stroke was set by rules makers to inspire 4-stroke development, not to ensure faster more competitive racing.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:11 pm 
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brrrappp wrote:
after 20 years and untold millions of dollars in racing development, we have yet to see a game changing break-through in motorcycle handling and thereby reduced lap tmes.
FYI: there is a 6 second GAP at Sepang 2001 to 2018 Rossi to Rossi. That is 80 percent a pure horsepower advantage.
Finally, let's not forget that the 50% displacement advantage of the 4-stroke was set by rules makers to inspire 4-stroke development, not to ensure faster more competitive racing.

In all the history of motorcycle racing, thee has never been a "a game changing break-through in motorcycle handling" , only small evolutions.

and you are trying to compare oranges with oranges, but apart from the colour , they have very little in common.

500 :
minimum weight 130kg
limitations on the engine : apart from nr of cylinders, nothing at all.
limitations on tyres : none, taylor made tires produced overnight to the very specifics of bike/temp/weather/rider/...
MotoGP:
157kg
limitations on the MotoGP engine : bore limited to 81mm. Without the 81mm, they would make a lot more power.
tyres : unified single brand, "one size fit's all" tires, determinned at the beginning of the year which tires will be used at the races

How can we even be sure a 500 would be faster with the current MotoGP tires ? Tires made for heavier bikes ...

PI is an "odd" circuit, as Horsepower means very little there. So let's look at Sepang : 6 secs over 18 years faster, is on average a gain of 0.3 sec every year (on a +20lap race, it means they finish the race +/- 7 seconds faster. Ask any team if they would be hapy with such an advance every year over the years and they will all probably sign on advance for it to happen. taking into account all the limitations, 0.3 ain't bad at all.

on a side-note : I'd sign immediatly for 2-stroke racing to come back, but that does not mean I'm blind to the acomplishments of the current bikes.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:15 pm 
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JanBros wrote:
In all the history of motorcycle racing, thee has never been a "a game changing break-through in motorcycle handling" , only small evolutions.


Actually, "In all the history of motorcycle racing" there have been several break-through changes that decreased lap times significantly for motorcycles, and made handling significantly better. In no particular order, let me remind you of a few that you already know:

Rubber tires
multi-cylinder engines
Front Suspension
Rear suspension
ALUMINUM
Hemi-style OHV combustion chambers
Disk Brakes
Radial Tires
Perimeter-style frames
Dual Overhead Camshafts
The rotary valve
The reed valve
Expansion chamber exhaust
The variable exhaust port
Computer controlled ignition
The 16 inch front wheel

Now that you are thinking about it can you name a few more?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:06 pm 
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brrrappp wrote:
JanBros wrote:
In all the history of motorcycle racing, thee has never been a "a game changing break-through in motorcycle handling" , only small evolutions.


Actually, "In all the history of motorcycle racing" there have been several break-through changes that decreased lap times significantly for motorcycles, and made handling significantly better. In no particular order, let me remind you of a few that you already know:

Rubber tires
multi-cylinder engines
Front Suspension
Rear suspension
ALUMINUM
Hemi-style OHV combustion chambers
Disk Brakes
Radial Tires
Perimeter-style frames
Dual Overhead Camshafts
The rotary valve
The reed valve
Expansion chamber exhaust
The variable exhaust port
Computer controlled ignition
The 16 inch front wheel

Now that you are thinking about it can you name a few more?


none of them was game-changing when they first appeared. they all started as a good idea with potential, but had to be developed over time to distract that potential. And you said "motorcycle engine" so I presumed you wrere talking about frame/suspension/... not the engine. But even engine-wise, I see nothing in your list that was an instant hit.

I guess we differ on the concept of "game-changer". for me , a true game-changer would be to come in a blow the competition away right away leaving them fighting for scarps far behind. Nothing in your list complies with my idea ;-)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:20 am 
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What I said was "But that sidesteps the fact that after 20 years and untold millions of dollars in racing development, we have yet to see a game changing break-through in motorcycle handling and thereby reduced lap times."

The single most significant technology that has appeared in MotoGP over the last 20 years is the Computer aided ABS/traction control and the Computer aided Engine control and management ECU/EMS.
This technology appears to have made the racing safer, not faster. More competitive, not faster. It is a technology that is directly transferable to production, making all of us "less talented" riders better. I am thankful for it but I can't help feeling a little impure when I use it. This is why I ride a 33 year old two-stroke.

Development time of a game changing technology does NOT take away the fact that each of the items that I listed reduced lap times significantly as compared to motorcycles without those technologies incorporated. It really wasn't a slow boil when compared to recent technology developments.

Your claim of yearly "incremental gains" is slightly flawed and is most apparent by the fact that the fastest MotoGP lap time at Phillip Island has stood since 2013. In fact lap times during the events have regressed in recent years at many tracks.

History shows there are many instances where a superior design has in fact run-a-way from the competition. Forcing the competition to change or die.

Heck, the cheap, powerful, simple, light weight and reliable Japanese 2-stroke nearly drove the entire European motorcycle industry out of racing and out of business!

Long-travel progressive rate rear suspension, another "game changer." Yes it took time to perfect but it was so much better that within a couple years of introduction, dual shocks were gone and again, lap times had decreased. The changes to front and rear suspension in the 70's and 80's were rapid as were the decrease in lap times. The suspension changes were not alone in reducing lap times. Indeed,brakes, tires, wheels, and engines also progressed.

There have been times when a single "game-changer" was the human racer. Either by sheer will or by demonstrating a completely different style, a racer can be the difference.
In my lifetime there are two that I idolize: Kenny Roberts Sr. and Bob "Hurricane" Hannah.
KR Sr. gave us the "hang-off and slide it" GP Racing style still in use today.
Hannah showed everyone that physical training is as important as talent. Grit, determination, killer instinct and running 10x 6-minute miles a day will win championships.
Both rode the Yellow and Black and both had a major part creating the Yamaha legend.

It is possible that we are at the 99% mark in motorcycle development.
Maybe the next breakthrough will be a new racing style. Maybe Marquez is about to show us something new and game-changing.

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