This is how much faster the 4stokes are than the 500s were
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This is how much faster the 4stokes are than the 500s were
Talking to a table of people at the restaurant tonight, One of them a AUSSIE & fellow 2 stroke addict middle aged man whom is a management team member for a CRT team, He declined to say which one. He noticed my vintage "Wayne Gardner" T shirt and said he had a Gamma 500 at one time, Then I said so did I !! and showed him a photo on my phone, well that called for a drink! During the next few drinks we ended TALKING 2 STROKE & the "same usual pathetic dribble of yesteryear"...If only the 2 strokes were still here FYI ..he liked them better as well & wished they were still with us! That seemed to be the common consensus between our tables.
Now a reality check. This pretty much puts things into perspective. we were discussing the current pace of the modern machinery over the antiquated 2 strokes we all know and love...
Some of the fastest group of 500cc 2 strokes ever to race at Laguna Seca ran laps at about 1min and 28 sec. Todays pace in qualifying , saw lap times at around 1 min 21 sec. That's 7 SECONDS A LAP FASTER So at Laguna the 500s running 32 laps at race distance would be LAPPED...not only once but just 20 seconds shy of being LAPPED TWICE! This place has a HDTV projection screen set up probably about 6' wide and if you saw todays "practice" crash by.... ....... and the onboard footage you can see how bloody fast these machines are traveling. WHAT A MIND BENDER. Now even more depressing news, Amazing but true todays Top AMA machines are faster as well, basically street machines, NO SAY IT AINT SO JOE!
BUT THATS HUGELY IMPRESSIVE!!! considering they started life off a production floor. But don't be naïve WSBK and AMA bikes do start as production machines, but then there fitted with anywhere from $150,000 -$300,000 if not more, worth of work. A FAR CRY from a MOTO GP prototypes estimated cost of 1.5- almost 3 million in the case of the HONDAS.
13 years ago is a long time since the demise of the 500cc 2 stroke. And a lot of advancements have been made, and some minor circuit changes as well, but mainly tires, tires and tires, and the advanced electronic packages and management systems, you cannot really compare these machines there apples to oranges, but its fun anyways. If the 500cc GP bikes of a generation ago had this new rubber and traction control and wheelie control, which they certainly would have to utilize to achieve lap times and tire life, no such thing as sliding the tire anymore. Then add better fuel management You could have a 500cc 2 stroke that would absolutely be at least 4 seconds a lap faster! The 500s pumped out about 180 h.p, the 1000s are rumored to deliver between 230h.p.- 260 h.p , the 500s probably couldn't produce too much more power, but controllability would improve, however engine longevity/reliability with the new rules would be a challenge if not impossible. And the RPM ceiling would be insurmountable the Massive RPMs the fours deliver allows incredible acceleration far beyond what the 500s were capable of. They were great while they lived Glad we all got a piece of the action all to ourselves
I know your body is a temple , but BROTHERS they got some OH GOD! OH SO SMOOTH !, Whiskey up here
Now a reality check. This pretty much puts things into perspective. we were discussing the current pace of the modern machinery over the antiquated 2 strokes we all know and love...
Some of the fastest group of 500cc 2 strokes ever to race at Laguna Seca ran laps at about 1min and 28 sec. Todays pace in qualifying , saw lap times at around 1 min 21 sec. That's 7 SECONDS A LAP FASTER So at Laguna the 500s running 32 laps at race distance would be LAPPED...not only once but just 20 seconds shy of being LAPPED TWICE! This place has a HDTV projection screen set up probably about 6' wide and if you saw todays "practice" crash by.... ....... and the onboard footage you can see how bloody fast these machines are traveling. WHAT A MIND BENDER. Now even more depressing news, Amazing but true todays Top AMA machines are faster as well, basically street machines, NO SAY IT AINT SO JOE!
BUT THATS HUGELY IMPRESSIVE!!! considering they started life off a production floor. But don't be naïve WSBK and AMA bikes do start as production machines, but then there fitted with anywhere from $150,000 -$300,000 if not more, worth of work. A FAR CRY from a MOTO GP prototypes estimated cost of 1.5- almost 3 million in the case of the HONDAS.
13 years ago is a long time since the demise of the 500cc 2 stroke. And a lot of advancements have been made, and some minor circuit changes as well, but mainly tires, tires and tires, and the advanced electronic packages and management systems, you cannot really compare these machines there apples to oranges, but its fun anyways. If the 500cc GP bikes of a generation ago had this new rubber and traction control and wheelie control, which they certainly would have to utilize to achieve lap times and tire life, no such thing as sliding the tire anymore. Then add better fuel management You could have a 500cc 2 stroke that would absolutely be at least 4 seconds a lap faster! The 500s pumped out about 180 h.p, the 1000s are rumored to deliver between 230h.p.- 260 h.p , the 500s probably couldn't produce too much more power, but controllability would improve, however engine longevity/reliability with the new rules would be a challenge if not impossible. And the RPM ceiling would be insurmountable the Massive RPMs the fours deliver allows incredible acceleration far beyond what the 500s were capable of. They were great while they lived Glad we all got a piece of the action all to ourselves
I know your body is a temple , but BROTHERS they got some OH GOD! OH SO SMOOTH !, Whiskey up here
HAPPY 30th YAMAHA YVPS 350 1983-2013. DONT OVER THINK IT , JUST BUILD IT AND BE JUST AS FAST AND RELIABLE
Re: This is how much faster the 4stokes are than the 500s we
What was the lap time of the first 4 stroke GP bikes. That would be a more meaningful comparison.
Thanx
Dave
Thanx
Dave
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RZ 250 85 (Parts)
RGV VJ21 250, Australian Speed Record Holder, MPS/G 250, 140.5 MPH
BMW R1100S 99 (Its Red)
BMW R1200GS (Its BIG)
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Re: This is how much faster the 4stokes are than the 500s we
I bet tire improvements is half that difference.
About a decade ago Performance Bikes had (I think) Ron Haslam run a Fireblade around Donnington. His lap times were better than the back of the grid in the GP's held there in the late '80s.
About a decade ago Performance Bikes had (I think) Ron Haslam run a Fireblade around Donnington. His lap times were better than the back of the grid in the GP's held there in the late '80s.
Re: This is how much faster the 4stokes are than the 500s we
I would like to see equal displacement with latest two stroke technology and latest bike technology and then see what the difference would be. Same as in motocross,I would like the twostroke run the same engine size as the fourstroke and then see which is faster.
1984 Rz350, Wicked Toomey rep pipes, Dynojet kit,Zeel unit,Toomey Y boot filter.
Re: This is how much faster the 4stokes are than the 500s we
The first year of the 4-strokes when they ran together with the 2-strokes, the 4-strokes essentially killed the old smokers. The 4-strokes had a much higher top speed and better traction coming off the corners. Everyone thought it would be a fair fight but it wasn't even close.South_Oz wrote:What was the lap time of the first 4 stroke GP bikes. That would be a more meaningful comparison.
Thanx
Dave
'82 RD350LC in '81 colours, OEM pipes, UNI filters
'85 FZ750
'85 FZ750
Re: This is how much faster the 4stokes are than the 500s we
This is an interesting discussion, but like others have mentioned there is a huge disparity in technology from the time bap between 2 stroke Moto GP and current 4 stroke Moto GP.
I wonder how it would look if one was to compare the last several years of Moto Rookie, since they were running a much more current 2 stroke, and only switched to 4 stroke this year.
I wonder how it would look if one was to compare the last several years of Moto Rookie, since they were running a much more current 2 stroke, and only switched to 4 stroke this year.
Re: This is how much faster the 4stokes are than the 500s we
I don't think they would have went for a 1000cc. Even if it was 600cc or, they used to run 700-750cc 2 strokes... Sadly we will never knowJackB wrote:I would like to see equal displacement with latest two stroke technology and latest bike technology and then see what the difference would be. Same as in motocross,I would like the twostroke run the same engine size as the fourstroke and then see which is faster.
1984 RZ350 - 421cc Athena Kit , V-Force III, 34mm Keihin's, K&N's, Billet Intake, Wicked Pipes
- aaronmvrider
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Re: This is how much faster the 4stokes are than the 500s we
yeah .. but you know what a 421 twin is like to ride... we cant have everything... but we can dream
1 x 4mm stroker rz 375cc 1983
1 x 7mm stroker rz 443cc 1984 (under construction)
1 x rz 500
1 x mv agusta 1000
1 x 7mm stroker rz 443cc 1984 (under construction)
1 x rz 500
1 x mv agusta 1000
Re: This is how much faster the 4stokes are than the 500s we
If we had equal displacement and a 4 cyl version of the Aprilia RSA 125(would be about 220-230 hp) 4 strokes would be crushed. The japanese were a LONG way behind in 2T technology when the 4T change came in. A 4 cyl RSA would have been competitive with the 800cc safety bikes
anti crank welding stike force
Re: This is how much faster the 4stokes are than the 500s we
Its alright saying equal displacement thats great at 1000cc and over 220bhp 2 stroke. The problem would be using the power and staying rubber side down. You would have to have some serious electronics to keep you upright and this is where the 4 stroke would be better a much better longer linear power/torque curve = easier to ride fast. Dont get me wrong Id have loved to see it happen would be great viewing.
I also believe when the 4 strokes came on the scene with the 2 stroke class for a bit the 2 strokes were still winning then they diesels took over very quickly after that season.
I also believe when the 4 strokes came on the scene with the 2 stroke class for a bit the 2 strokes were still winning then they diesels took over very quickly after that season.
Re: This is how much faster the 4stokes are than the 500s we
Have a ride on a disc valve 2T Kenny no problems using the power, the problem would be getting a tyre to cope. Thing is with a 2T you don't NEED a 1000cc, or conversely what would the power delivery be like on a 220hp 500cc 4T?. With my spy telling me Manfred from WIWA has just cracked the 80HP with his GAS GAS 250 kart engine (don't think that's peaky either) and Viper getting a big fat 70HP from their CR 250 based engines, or think of a V4 68X68mm 1000cc 2T engine would be over 300HP-160ft/lbs
anti crank welding stike force
Re: This is how much faster the 4stokes are than the 500s we
Check the lap records for 250 G.P. & compare them with Moto 3 for a laugh..
Or even with Moto 2, those whining Hondas are still slower..
Note that the quickest G.P. 250 lap of Phillip Is beat the 500's too..
Or even with Moto 2, those whining Hondas are still slower..
Note that the quickest G.P. 250 lap of Phillip Is beat the 500's too..
- motoholic71
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Re: This is how much faster the 4stokes are than the 500s we
You are forgetting 2 strokes became dominant on the tracks by nature when they were still trying out which one worked best.
Even Honda surrendered after the NR fiasco.
4 strokes were imposed by a number of reasons and the builders focused their efforts on them years before when they felt the change of the tide.
They were not trying to beat them anymore.
2 stroke left the stage at 4oohp per liter and they never got to see fuel injection and ride by wire etc tech stuff wich was not available back then to help control that power.
Sure the bikes are faster now it's been years and they are 2X bigger.
Back then you better have exceptional riding skills.
I wonder what would happen if polution was not an issue
We would have 500 cc replicas on the streets and outstanding bike accidents
Even Honda surrendered after the NR fiasco.
4 strokes were imposed by a number of reasons and the builders focused their efforts on them years before when they felt the change of the tide.
They were not trying to beat them anymore.
2 stroke left the stage at 4oohp per liter and they never got to see fuel injection and ride by wire etc tech stuff wich was not available back then to help control that power.
Sure the bikes are faster now it's been years and they are 2X bigger.
Back then you better have exceptional riding skills.
I wonder what would happen if polution was not an issue
We would have 500 cc replicas on the streets and outstanding bike accidents
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Re: This is how much faster the 4stokes are than the 500s we
If 2-strokes weren't specifically restricted/banned from G.P. racing then of course they would still be winning..
The 4T cycle is by nature lazy, as notable aero-engine engineer Stanley Hooker once remarked..
"4-strokes = 1 stroke for power & 3 to wear the engine out"
4-strokes have to be revved really fast or pumped up by supercharged pressures to do real work,
& then become too complex/expensive/heavy/large..
Even 4T ideologues Honda have been unable to market a 4T chainsaw, for exactly that reason..
The 4T cycle is by nature lazy, as notable aero-engine engineer Stanley Hooker once remarked..
"4-strokes = 1 stroke for power & 3 to wear the engine out"
4-strokes have to be revved really fast or pumped up by supercharged pressures to do real work,
& then become too complex/expensive/heavy/large..
Even 4T ideologues Honda have been unable to market a 4T chainsaw, for exactly that reason..
Re: This is how much faster the 4stokes are than the 500s we
I want that on a T-shirt!J.A.W. wrote: "4-strokes = 1 stroke for power & 3 to wear the engine out"