RGV braced swing arm with NK Racing kit. Rear wheel centre?

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Stink_wheels
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RGV braced swing arm with NK Racing kit. Rear wheel centre?

#1 Post by Stink_wheels » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:00 pm

I've got a kit Nigel put together for mounting up the braced swing arm in my 1984 frame. The swing arm sits in the frame beautifully with the provided bearing bushes, it has with no side play within the frame and is sitting where it needs to be. The shock is sitting in the centre of the frame and looks great when mounted up with the linkage brackets and spacers provided, and the new dog bone. Up until this point everything looks excellent, however when I slide the rear wheel in with the standard RGV wheel spacers, the wheel seems to be offset to the right a bit compared to the centre line of the frame? In this normal with this conversion? I'm assuming the wheel isn't supposed to be moved over to the left with different wheel spacers otherwise they would be provided in the kit?

If this isn't normal one cause I thought of is potentially whoever put the bearings in this RGV wheel originally may have pressed the wrong side in first causing the wheel to be offset, I'll look into that too.

I'm guessing some of you guys would have used one of Nigel's kits before, or done this conversion before so I was wondering if you've seen this before and what you did? A 10mm offset front sprocket was provided but I was under the impression this was to suit the wheel being mounted 'as Suzuki standard' and won't work if I move the wheel over more. I do also have a 17mm offset sprocket that I sourced elsewhere for just in case too though.

I will contact Nigel if I can't sort it out but I thought asking you guys would be the best knowledge base to check with first :)
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JonW
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Re: RGV braced swing arm with NK Racing kit. Rear wheel cent

#2 Post by JonW » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:11 pm

The wheel should be in the middle of the frame, ie wheels in line. It is on my LC and I would assume the same on the RZ.

(I have NK kits for both of my bikes, just havent done the RZ yet)
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Re: RGV braced swing arm with NK Racing kit. Rear wheel cent

#3 Post by Stink_wheels » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:16 pm

Cool, you'd think it would be in the middle but I've seen bikes straight from the factory with offset wheels (Harley Davidson Rocker, I'm looking at you) so I thought I'd better ask the question before tearing my hair out! The motor is partly disassembled on the bench so I can't check if the chain is running true between the sprockets yet. How much clearance is there normally between the rim and the inside of the swingarm on the left?
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Re: RGV braced swing arm with NK Racing kit. Rear wheel cent

#4 Post by nikfubar » Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:01 pm

The wheel should run centre of the frame/swing arm, use two straight edges to line it up with the front wheel ( best done with the tyres off & clamp the straight edges to the rear rim.) Punch alignment marks on the swing arm, only then can you tell the offset sprocket required. For some unknown reason nearly every bike is different.
If the wheel is not central the spacers are arranged incorrectly or the wrong ones.
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Re: RGV braced swing arm with NK Racing kit. Rear wheel cent

#5 Post by Stink_wheels » Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:47 pm

It's a little hard to get pics showing it but the wheel doesn't seem to be sitting centre to the swing arm (and therefor nor to the frame). I have checked the RGV manual and the rear wheel spacers appear match the manual and are the right way around, they are different diameters and shape so can't go the other way round anyway. The concerning part is the disc is centred in the calliper body so the wheel can't really be wrong? (the calliper is only sitting there loose in the photo but you get the idea). With everything set up how I believe the manual is showing the wheel looks over to the right in the swing arm. There also isn't much clearance on the left hand side between the wheel and the swingarm to actually move it over anyway.

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Re: RGV braced swing arm with NK Racing kit. Rear wheel cent

#6 Post by mkane » Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:56 pm

Real possibility the wheel spacers are reversed. I can't use a 10mm offset sprocket unless using a standard chain. An o-ring chain rubs on the frame.

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Re: RGV braced swing arm with NK Racing kit. Rear wheel cent

#7 Post by Stink_wheels » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:12 pm

The spacer on the right (disc) side is a T shaped spacer with a smaller OD side facing towards the wheel, and larger OD side away from the wheel. The left (sprocket) side is a normal shaped spacer that is the same OD across the whole spacer. This is how the manual looks? Also as the spacers are a different OD they don't physically fit inside the bearing seals of the wheel if installed the other way around. Unless of course the bearings are wrong and the seals are installed on the wrong sides but the manual seems to pretty clearly show the T shaped spacer with the smaller OD towards the wheel and on the disc side, which is where it is now so that doesn't make sense.
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Re: RGV braced swing arm with NK Racing kit. Rear wheel cent

#8 Post by mkane » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:13 pm

Time for a bit of machine work

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Re: RGV braced swing arm with NK Racing kit. Rear wheel cent

#9 Post by Stink_wheels » Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:50 am

Yeah... Although I'm baffled as to why this exact kit with these exact parts has apparently worked for others as I've got it set up? I've sent Nigel an email asking for some help getting my head around it.

The standard rear wheel spacers are actually the same width as you can see so that won't change anything

Right side
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Left side
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And the swing arm can't physically go left or right so that has to be where it is
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So I'm lost as to anything being wrong?

Now if I take the wheel spacers out completely and slide the wheel as far to the left as it can go it starts to look central. But this photo is with the tyre actually touching the left hand side of the swing arm.

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I'm OK with machining up some spacers and moving the wheel over but I'm going to run into trouble with chain clearence and getting a suitable offset sprocket. Not to mention that I haven't heard of anyone else having to do this :smt017
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Re: RGV braced swing arm with NK Racing kit. Rear wheel cent

#10 Post by nikfubar » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:29 am

Have you got the sprocket carrier spacer installed correctly :smt017
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Re: RGV braced swing arm with NK Racing kit. Rear wheel cent

#11 Post by JonW » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:09 am

Did the wheel, axle, spacers and swingarm all come from the same bike? Ive had people tell me all sorts of porkies about parts... tho it has to be said, if it all went into the gap between the two arms of the swinger then surely its 'as designed'. hmm...

We always take the same amount off each side of the singer pivot, and I always assume the wheel is central to the swinger, and the swinger central to the bike. Are those things the case when fitted to the RZ? I'm sure they were when fitted to the LC... hmm...

Silly thought.... is your rear subframe bent?
80 XT500 Supermoto!
81 RD350LC Resto
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82 RD250LC JDM '251LC' YPVS
83 RZ350 Resto
84 RZ500 Resto
85 RZ350 F1 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Hybrid

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Re: RGV braced swing arm with NK Racing kit. Rear wheel cent

#12 Post by RuZty » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:23 am

Don't reference the rear of the swingarm, it is wider to the sprocket side to accommodate the cush drive. The center of the pivot end of the swingarm is on the bike centerline. Also, don't use the end of the subframe as a reference for frame centerline, it could be all over the place from the factory and even worse if it has been dropped. Mine showed no visible bends/kinks/damage and was offset 10mm.

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Re: RGV braced swing arm with NK Racing kit. Rear wheel cent

#13 Post by Stink_wheels » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:03 am

RuZty wrote:Don't reference the rear of the swingarm, it is wider to the sprocket side to accommodate the cush drive. The center of the pivot end of the swingarm is on the bike centerline. Also, don't use the end of the subframe as a reference for frame centerline, it could be all over the place from the factory and even worse if it has been dropped. Mine showed no visible bends/kinks/damage and was offset 10mm.
Yep, spot on. As far as I can see the rear wheel is supposed to be offset slightly toward the right of the wheel end of the swingarm when fitted as Suzuki intended on an RGV250. And as the pivot end of the swingarm fits between the frame snugly on an RZ350 it can't be moved left or right, so I really can't see how anyone could have the wheel running in the centre of the bike on an RZ350 when the wheel is mounted up with standard Suzuki wheel spacers? Yet from what I understand a number of people have said they did exactly this and the wheel was centred on the bike? :smt017

Further still, as you said there isn't a lot of room to actually move the wheel to the left to bring it to the bike's centreline as there was intentionally room left on that side for the sprocket and cush drive.
JonW wrote:Did the wheel, axle, spacers and swingarm all come from the same bike? Ive had people tell me all sorts of porkies about parts... tho it has to be said, if it all went into the gap between the two arms of the swinger then surely its 'as designed'. hmm...

We always take the same amount off each side of the singer pivot, and I always assume the wheel is central to the swinger, and the swinger central to the bike. Are those things the case when fitted to the RZ? I'm sure they were when fitted to the LC... hmm...

Silly thought.... is your rear subframe bent?
There's no guarantee the parts all came from the same Suzuki but I was told they did, and they seem to match what the manual says they should be. The wheel, brake bracket, sprocket carrier and spacers all go together and fit between the swingarm perfectly so I have no reason to believe they're not matching? I can't find any photos of an RGV250 from directly behind to confirm my suspicions that the wheel is slightly to the right side of the swing arm on a standard RGV (but still on the bike centreline) as mentioned above.

What do you mean by take the same amount off each side of the swinger pivot? With the kit I was supplied by NK there was no mention of modifying the swingarm and the pivot end of the swingarm slotted straight into the frame with no material taken off it? Just some new bushes were provided to accommodate the smaller diameter of the standard RZ pivot shaft sitting in the Suzuki bearings?

I don't believe the subframe is bent but I haven't been using that to reference the rear wheel anyway.
nikfubar wrote:Have you got the sprocket carrier spacer installed correctly :smt017
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Yes, I believe so? Did you use an NK Racing kit on that bike? Have you got any photos of the front of the swing arm in the frame?

Is there any spacer between the brake bracket and the swing arm on the right hand side? (the brake line covers it up in the pic) Or just the wheel spacer and the bracket on the right side? If so that's how mine is :smt017

From the left hand side going across there is a 20mm spacer, the sprocket carrier, the sprocket carrier spacer (which looks like the one in your first photo), the wheel, another 20mm spacer and the brake bracket. All together this fills the space between the swingarm perfectly and leaves the wheel off to the right side of the swingarm, unlike the wheel in your photo. And with the swingarm mounted where it is, when the wheel is off to the right side of the swingarm it also is to the right side of the centreline of the bike :smt037
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Re: RGV braced swing arm with NK Racing kit. Rear wheel cent

#14 Post by RuZty » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:11 am

I should also mention that I'm using a 750 Katana wheel, not RGV, so I started from scratch on alignment.

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Re: RGV braced swing arm with NK Racing kit. Rear wheel cent

#15 Post by Stink_wheels » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:16 am

Cool, Nigel has confirmed the kit should be able to be fitted with standard RGV wheel/spacers/etc and leave the rear wheel centred so it's got me buggered what's wrong with mine. I'm going to remove the rear wheel bearings and fit some new ones from scratch to ensure that's correct (one side must be fitted first, then the crush tube determines the location of the opposite side) so I'm hoping this was done backwards with the wrong side pressed in first at some point. Everything else appears to be correct so if it's still off with the wheel bearings re-done I guess I'll be starting from scratch with wheel alignment too. Getting it centred isn't a worry with custom spacers, finding an offset sprocket to suit might be though?
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