Fitting XS Emulators - Method?

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Consciousness
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Fitting XS Emulators - Method?

#1 Post by Consciousness » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:24 am

I decided as the rear fox twin clicker is getting some love over at Lindemann Engineering and i am changing fork oil now might be the time to add emulators to the arsenal, i have already added .75kg/mm straight-rate springs and 20w oil which will be changed to 10w.

I have looked at the posts available but as you might imagine i am still unclear as to the correct method, did i miss a link to the abridged version? I would be buying the emulators over at mikesxs but am confused as to follow the race tech method with braising or not.

The mechanic doing the work has never fitted them before but has rebuilt many forks, he is deaf which can make relating information verbally a bit tricky.

Are there any pitfalls to look out for that should be especially noted?

Cheers

edit: Just saw these also they are 35mm with a 1.5 thread pitch so should fit at $75 shipped would you recommend?

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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Adjustable-Prel ... 03?vxp=mtr
85 RZ350 KR. Racetech/Fox Motul 10W. Telefix, Prog. Zeel, VForce4's, VM30 Mik's Uni-Filters & UFOs, Grooved Head & Mild Port w/Boyesen's by Rich's Taylor'd Porting, Orig. Toomeys, Redline, Conti Attack2.

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JonW
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Re: Fitting XS Emulators - Method?

#2 Post by JonW » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:16 pm

John at Economy Cycle sells tops like those, check him first as he is a forum guy, plus you get a discount :)

The abridged version of this topic... Weeeelllll..... there isnt one. There are two options, you do it the way Mike suggests for the XS650 or you do it the way racetech suggested back when they invented the kit.

You dont have an XS, so even if its the modern way of doing it, its not for an RZ.... opinions vary on that statement.

There are a few other variations as well. bare will chime in on the way he did it I expect as I dont think he drilled or filled any holes or something.

For you... my 'advice'... could get flamed any time soon LOL! I would go the Racetech way, its well documented and the pages are on the threads. It might not be perfect but its reproduceable and they did RnD for that setup, so its a winner in my book as you have a US RZ with the forks it was designed for.
80 XT500 Supermoto!
81 RD350LC Resto
82 RD421LC Hybrid
82 RD350LC decapitation project
82 RD250LC JDM '251LC' YPVS
83 RZ350 Resto
84 RZ500 Resto
85 RZ350 F1 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Hybrid

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Re: Fitting XS Emulators - Method?

#3 Post by RuZty » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:45 am

Search on here, the Racetech instructions are posted by me or in a post I responded to, just don't have the time to find them right now.

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Consciousness
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Re: Fitting XS Emulators - Method?

#4 Post by Consciousness » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:49 am

Thanks RuZty, I found the link to Tobsters method.

tobster wrote:
I'm sure as you know the instructions for installing the RaceTech items are far more complicated than just dropping the emulators in.
Here are their instructions for modifying the damper rod

RZ350 DAMPING ROD MODIFICATION

TOOLS REQUIRED (In addition to those required for standard installation): Brazing Equipment, Fine Flat File, Drill Motor and 5/64" (2.0 mm) Drill Bit, 1/4" Drift (flat end punch) and a Hammer.

CAUTION: THIS MODIFICATION REQUIRES BRAZING AND CAREFUL FILEING. INSTALLATION SHOULD BE PERFORMED BY A QUALIFIED MECHANIC. IF YOU ARE UNFAMILIAR WITH THIS PROCEDURE, STOP! CALL RACE TECH OR A QUALIFIED MECHANIC.

The RZ has a unique "twin tube" damping rod that must be modified for proper damping. The inner tube must be removed and the stock rebound feed holes must be brazed and re-drilled.

1 Remove the damping rods from the forks.
2 Clamp the damping rod lengthwise in a vise with soft jaws to protect the rod. The end of the inner tube is located approximately 38 mm (1 1/2") from the bottom end of the tube. Insert a 6 mm (1/4") drift into the bottom of the damping rod. Angle it to the side and tap out the inner tube (fig 1). Discard the inner tube.
3 There are four rebound feed holes stock. Two large holes located at the top of the rod and two small holes located further down the rod. Braze all four stock rebound feed holes shut. Completely file the excess braze off flush with the damping rod surface. Be careful not to remove steel from the damping rod itself as this will affect the rebound damping.
4 Drill one new 2 mm (5/64") rebound hole 32 mm (1 1/4") from the bottom of the head of the damping rod. It should be at the same height as the top original rebound hole. Deburr the hole inside and out.
5 Complete the installation following the standard instructions by drilling new compression holes in the bottom of the damping rod, setting the oil level to 160 mm with US-2 (10wt) fluid.

I PM'd Tobster to ask if it was absolutely necessary to lathe the top of the damper rod, would like to avoid if possible as mech. doesn't a lathe.
85 RZ350 KR. Racetech/Fox Motul 10W. Telefix, Prog. Zeel, VForce4's, VM30 Mik's Uni-Filters & UFOs, Grooved Head & Mild Port w/Boyesen's by Rich's Taylor'd Porting, Orig. Toomeys, Redline, Conti Attack2.

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Re: Fitting XS Emulators - Method?

#5 Post by Consciousness » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:49 am

Thanks RuZty, I found the link to Tobsters method.

tobster wrote:
I'm sure as you know the instructions for installing the RaceTech items are far more complicated than just dropping the emulators in.
Here are their instructions for modifying the damper rod

RZ350 DAMPING ROD MODIFICATION

TOOLS REQUIRED (In addition to those required for standard installation): Brazing Equipment, Fine Flat File, Drill Motor and 5/64" (2.0 mm) Drill Bit, 1/4" Drift (flat end punch) and a Hammer.

CAUTION: THIS MODIFICATION REQUIRES BRAZING AND CAREFUL FILEING. INSTALLATION SHOULD BE PERFORMED BY A QUALIFIED MECHANIC. IF YOU ARE UNFAMILIAR WITH THIS PROCEDURE, STOP! CALL RACE TECH OR A QUALIFIED MECHANIC.

The RZ has a unique "twin tube" damping rod that must be modified for proper damping. The inner tube must be removed and the stock rebound feed holes must be brazed and re-drilled.

1 Remove the damping rods from the forks.
2 Clamp the damping rod lengthwise in a vise with soft jaws to protect the rod. The end of the inner tube is located approximately 38 mm (1 1/2") from the bottom end of the tube. Insert a 6 mm (1/4") drift into the bottom of the damping rod. Angle it to the side and tap out the inner tube (fig 1). Discard the inner tube.
3 There are four rebound feed holes stock. Two large holes located at the top of the rod and two small holes located further down the rod. Braze all four stock rebound feed holes shut. Completely file the excess braze off flush with the damping rod surface. Be careful not to remove steel from the damping rod itself as this will affect the rebound damping.
4 Drill one new 2 mm (5/64") rebound hole 32 mm (1 1/4") from the bottom of the head of the damping rod. It should be at the same height as the top original rebound hole. Deburr the hole inside and out.
5 Complete the installation following the standard instructions by drilling new compression holes in the bottom of the damping rod, setting the oil level to 160 mm with US-2 (10wt) fluid.

I PM'd Tobster to ask if it was absolutely necessary to lathe the top of the damper rod, would like to avoid if possible as mech. doesn't a lathe.
85 RZ350 KR. Racetech/Fox Motul 10W. Telefix, Prog. Zeel, VForce4's, VM30 Mik's Uni-Filters & UFOs, Grooved Head & Mild Port w/Boyesen's by Rich's Taylor'd Porting, Orig. Toomeys, Redline, Conti Attack2.

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JonW
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Re: Fitting XS Emulators - Method?

#6 Post by JonW » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:50 pm

you defo need to do the tops. he should know of an engineering company who can do that...
80 XT500 Supermoto!
81 RD350LC Resto
82 RD421LC Hybrid
82 RD350LC decapitation project
82 RD250LC JDM '251LC' YPVS
83 RZ350 Resto
84 RZ500 Resto
85 RZ350 F1 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Hybrid

Like Watches? www.PloProf.com & www.DeskDivers.com

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Re: Fitting XS Emulators - Method?

#7 Post by RuZty » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:18 pm

Braze when filling the holes., don't weld them or you'll never get a nice finish on the tube.

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Re: Fitting XS Emulators - Method?

#8 Post by Consciousness » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:36 pm

RuZty wrote:Braze when filling the holes., don't weld them or you'll never get a nice finish on the tube.
Will do. I saw the mess one shop made in a post , what a horror.
85 RZ350 KR. Racetech/Fox Motul 10W. Telefix, Prog. Zeel, VForce4's, VM30 Mik's Uni-Filters & UFOs, Grooved Head & Mild Port w/Boyesen's by Rich's Taylor'd Porting, Orig. Toomeys, Redline, Conti Attack2.

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Re: Fitting XS Emulators - Method?

#9 Post by Bare » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:36 pm

MY YSS em valves are fitted exactly as per the included YSS instructions:
Drill out the bottom holes etc. size and location is specified.. It's easy. But No brazing up of any other holes.
Works Fine.
Racetech may have invented valves but they did so Many years ago and seemingly haven't updated any info since.
Valves DO take a fair bit of fiddly adjusting and trying oil types/viscosities to dial the rascals in. No Free Lunch.. ever.
Refitting the Fork caps is a genuine pain.. especially so.. after the 5th time that day.
Still.. Worth the effort, once the pain memory has diminished :-)
But these are No substitute for grafting on a set of 'Moderne' forks... they just help with an old inadequate design.
G'luck

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Re: Fitting XS Emulators - Method?

#10 Post by Hellgate » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:32 pm

I have Race Tech emulators and springs on my '88. They work well. As stated it's better than stock, but no Ohlins.
Cheers!

Pete

'12 Tuono V4R APRC, '05 R6, '88 RZ350, '82 XV920R

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Re: Fitting XS Emulators - Method?

#11 Post by mkane » Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:05 pm

Transformed my front end from un ridable at triple digits to nice and smooth.

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Re: Fitting XS Emulators - Method?

#12 Post by Consciousness » Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:19 am

mkane wrote:Transformed my front end from un ridable at triple digits to nice and smooth.
Would that feel like a vibration in the front end? I was heading toward a buck on the Pacific Palisades pkwy the other day, it a fairly smooth road and at around 90 the vibration felt like it could be an unbalanced tire but now i wonder if it is a characteristic of the stock forks with uprated springs, 75kgmm.

Also another quick question, is there a sure fire way to get the bars, forks and front wheel perfectly aligned, i used the eyemeter and discovered why it was pulling under braking, clearly the wheel was turned left with the flat back of the steering head parralel with the front of the tank, i loosened the four bolts at the front of the forks and also the telefix fork brace, got the back of the head stem lined up with the tank and the front wheel lined up, tightened it all back up.

Did i miss anything or is there a more scientific approach?
85 RZ350 KR. Racetech/Fox Motul 10W. Telefix, Prog. Zeel, VForce4's, VM30 Mik's Uni-Filters & UFOs, Grooved Head & Mild Port w/Boyesen's by Rich's Taylor'd Porting, Orig. Toomeys, Redline, Conti Attack2.

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Re: Fitting XS Emulators - Method?

#13 Post by mkane » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:09 pm

To get the front end straight and true tighten the axle with the stanchion pinch bolts loose, apply the brake and pump the forks a few times, then tighten the bolts. I had severe chatter at speed in any high speed turn on the track. Chatter is the wheel leaving the ground. I was so bad I couldn't see and a crash was just around the corner unless I slowed down. Emulators/radial tires cured the issue. This change has decreased my lap time's according to the gears I now use in the high speed stuff. I need to hold back a bit as I get older healing takes longer. A better comparison might be go drive a 60's car and then jump in something new. You wonder why old people drive so damn fast on the freeway. The feeling of speed has diminished in the modern car. The RaceTech mod may make your forks to stiff for street use unless you use a real low viscosity oil. The plus is you now have adjustable compression.

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Re: Fitting XS Emulators - Method?

#14 Post by Consciousness » Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:06 am

Thanks so much mkane, i had a feeling i was missing something when i was putting the tools away. Heading out to fix it in a few.

Now i'm not sure if you caught in one of my later posts that i didn't get the emulators fitted as it was a bit to much all at once for the guy. He did an awesome job on everything else and really knows how to dial in a set of carbs. :smt077

With a 10 weight oil over the 20w i had with my 75kg/mm springs the bike is way better, it felt brittle has hell with 20w. However could that vibration be the same in my case as yours, albeit less extreme? For me to push beyond 95 i have to take a brave pill and it seems I've ran out atm.

Too true about modern cars, my last car was a 1966 Innocenti Mini Cooper 1300 that had been shipped over from Italy by an old guy and his little wife who lived in a little cottage on the coast of Maine. When they got it delivered it wasn't long before they discovered it might not be the right Mini for them. Let me explain what greeted me when he opened the garage door.
Image

I believe this to be my mini before it came over to the US, i had a computer crash and lost all the pics. When it arrived it was fitted with a stinger exhaust, which he replaced, immediately. But the engine was a complete beast, better crank, head and valve train than the British version, an oil cooler and twin 1 3/4 SU's plus this thing had been worked on. Out on the test drive i drove it like an old lady but i could feel it chomping at the bit, steering and pedal inputs of a go kart, needless to say i bought it and drove it back to NYC.

After a good going over to make sure nothing was loose in the steering and it braked straight, i mashed the pedal way beyond anything that old man had dared to and this thing took off the flywheel was lightened for sure as 1st went to 7k pretty quickly with the wheel wriggling in my hands from the torque steer, i just changed up and repeated until i got to 4th, i saw 115mph at 7700k on the Veglia gauges, i later found out the engine would hold beyond 8k.

That was a real car imho, you could say it's pretty close to a go kart but isn't that what all real drivers want their car to respond like? The new Mini ain't bad at all though i must admit even though it seems to get uglier in every iteration. The car before that was a 1974 BMW 2002 but that's another story.

Oh yeah, the old couple found the perfect Mini for them, a MUSTARD BROWN MINI 850 A U T O M A T I C !
85 RZ350 KR. Racetech/Fox Motul 10W. Telefix, Prog. Zeel, VForce4's, VM30 Mik's Uni-Filters & UFOs, Grooved Head & Mild Port w/Boyesen's by Rich's Taylor'd Porting, Orig. Toomeys, Redline, Conti Attack2.

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Re: Fitting XS Emulators - Method?

#15 Post by mkane » Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:40 am

Nice. We used to vintage race Minis a ways back.

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