Correct Year Range for FZ600 Swinger Swap PLZ???

General forum on frames, brakes, suspension, wheels and tires

Moderator: rztom

Message
Author
gpaddict
Posts: 643
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:35 pm
Location: WISCONSIN

Re: Correct Year Range for FZ600 Swinger Swap PLZ???

#16 Post by gpaddict » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:18 pm

My swingarm is from an 88 fzr 1000.
tuned to Paris Hilton specs............rich and retarded!

2bang
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 3:15 am
Location: South Florida

Re: Correct Year Range for FZ600 Swinger Swap PLZ???

#17 Post by 2bang » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:54 pm

Is it correct that the FZ600 swingarm is off center? That most folks cut the same amount off both sides of the pivot, then make different sized spacers (for each side) to center the wheel??

Wouldn't it be better to cut different amounts off each side of the swingarm pivot, to center the swingarm,
resulting, i guess, in same sized spacers?

Also plz refresh my mem about how much needs to be removed from the FZ600 swingarm pivot?

Plz help... i'm confused..
Greg

User avatar
kpke
-----
-----
Posts: 2531
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:22 pm
Location: Livermore, CA

Re: Correct Year Range for FZ600 Swinger Swap PLZ???

#18 Post by kpke » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:19 am

2bang wrote:
Plz help... i'm confused..
I don't know if it is off center.

Julian has machined two of these for me and I am pretty sure he machines the same amount off of each side. I don't know how much that is. Do you have the stock swing arm there? Measure it and cut it down to that width. Also the rear sprocket carrier in my case was machined down 4 mm to align the chain to the front sprocket. The chain is close to the rear tire but does not hit.

Have you gone here to our good friend vespaman’s website?

http://www.scooterhelp.com/RZ_help/upgr ... .main.html

There are very, very detailed instructions on fitting the FZ600 to the RZ, including the dimensions you asked for.

RuZty
-----
-----
Posts: 3584
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:11 pm
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada

Re: Correct Year Range for FZ600 Swinger Swap PLZ???

#19 Post by RuZty » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:11 pm

Don't forget that there is room for the sprocket/chain/cush drive on the left side, depending on the bike the rotor might be inboard of the edge of the tire on the right so the swingarm will look offset to the left with no wheel in it. The wheel needs to be on centreline with the pivot, not centered between the arms (although on some bikes this might also be the case). I've never done an FZ600 swap so I don't know if that applies in this case.

2bang
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 3:15 am
Location: South Florida

Re: Correct Year Range for FZ600 Swinger Swap PLZ???

#20 Post by 2bang » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:13 pm

kpke wrote: I don't know if it is off center.
Julian has machined two of these for me and I am pretty sure he machines the same amount off of each side. I don't know how much that is. Do you have the stock swing arm there? Measure it and cut it down to that width. Also the rear sprocket carrier in my case was machined down 4 mm to align the chain to the front sprocket. The chain is close to the rear tire but does not hit.
Is Julian Vespaman? Could/would he do the modification for me?
kpke wrote:Have you gone here to our good friend vespaman’s website?
http://www.scooterhelp.com/RZ_help/upgr ... .main.html
There are very, very detailed instructions on fitting the FZ600 to the RZ, including the dimensions you asked for.
Yes, read it over carefully more than once, but thanks!

I think what confuses me is that:
Other threads on the subject here, ppl took different aproaches... partly due to different donor wheels and other associated parts, BUT ALSO... to get the rear wheel centered, particularly given the use of several different combo's of other parts....

It looks to me like the FZ swingarm is not "symmetrical" like the RZ swingarm is (AFAIK)
I don't actually have an FZ swingarm yet (getting hard to find and/or expensive!), and access to my RZ for things like measuring is limited right now... (and stock swingarm still mounted to bike)
I'm trying to get as much as possible figured out in advance, and source parts, hopefully without making costly mistakes, and/or having to wait a long time once the bike is pulled apart.
RuZty wrote:Don't forget that there is room for the sprocket/chain/cush drive on the left side, depending on the bike the rotor might be inboard of the edge of the tire on the right so the swingarm will look offset to the left with no wheel in it. The wheel needs to be on centreline with the pivot, not centered between the arms (although on some bikes this might also be the case). I've never done an FZ600 swap so I don't know if that applies in this case.
Thats just the thing..
If the wheel is centered to the center point on the pivot, it won't be centered with respect to the center point between the arms... (from what I've read).
Which nescessitates different sized spacers and more cutting to this or that (assuming all parts center the wheel with respect to center point between arms).

SO! Wouldn't it be better to cut whatever different amounts from each end of pivot.. getting the ARM centered in the bike?
(that is, make pivot centerpoint and between-arms centerpoint the same)
Might make for less cutting of other things, and possibly even sized spacers?
Should make wheel centering easier too?
No?

That was basically the essence of my question.

IE: 1)find centerpoint on pivot 2)find center point between arms.... 3)compare.. 4)do the math.
5)Do same with RZ swingarm and compare that result to the FZ result.

Hoping all that makes sense.
Thanks!
Greg

User avatar
kpke
-----
-----
Posts: 2531
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:22 pm
Location: Livermore, CA

Re: Correct Year Range for FZ600 Swinger Swap PLZ???

#21 Post by kpke » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:49 am

I would be very hesitant to take anyone else's measurements and machine that FZ swing arm to their specs. You may end up with something unusable. :smt009

I appreciate that you are trying to get ahead of the game, but I think for this you will be better off disassembling your bike to get the exact measurements. I believe there is a large difference in tolerances on these mass-produced bikes. Plus you sound smart :smt002 and maybe will do something a little different than others have done.

If I get some time I can do some measuring as I have a stock swingarm and a machined FZ swingarm. Which is somewhat hypocritical as the FZ swingarm is not machined for a specific bike. :smt005

Please don't hold your breath waiting for my measurements though. It could very well be a year or five. :smt042

Julian is "framemaker" and I think it is a safe bet that he will not have time to do the machining for you. He is busy and involved in many motorcycle interests.

User avatar
tkm433
Posts: 166
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 9:56 pm

Re: Correct Year Range for FZ600 Swinger Swap PLZ???

#22 Post by tkm433 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:02 pm

2bang wrote:Is it correct that the FZ600 swingarm is off center?
Both the first gen FZ600 arm and the RZ350 are not off center. You will need to modify the linkage.

It has been close to 15 years since I did the conversion on my RZ350 but If I recall I had my local machine shop machine the FZ are to the same width as the stock RZ arm being that I was using the stock RZ pivot bolt and end caps.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
Questo vecchio rz
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:55 pm
Location: Reconquista of California

Re: Correct Year Range for FZ600 Swinger Swap PLZ???

#23 Post by Questo vecchio rz » Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:58 am

Mine was just machined equal to the stock arm, just as most.

Its been a long time for me as well, I bought my swingarms already completed for the most part. If you are intrested, I have ( two files) from the guy whom did this conversion, he used to be a member here a decade ago. It shows each step w photos, all parts required, and parts numbers are listed for ordering what you need.
Mine differs a little & has a 17" wheel instead of the 18" RZ or FZR wheel.
Mine utilizes a GS500 cush drive, a kinda hard to sourceGSXR 750 4.5"rear rim w the 240mmm rotor needed for the FZ brake caliper The GS500 cush helps eliminate/reduce machining & sprocket alignment issues.

There have been two site crashes here that forever lost all posted technical information on the 350 side of this forum. ( virtually all mod writeups and tuning info was lost. So I tried using a internet archive , that goes back to the mid 90s so I could just post it here, but had no luck :smt011 and the memberlist here and forum archive only go back to 2003 , he was here in the late 90s early 2000s.
. If you want to send me in a PM your E-mail, I can scan or possibly convert into a PDF file and send it to you. ( when I get a chance).

Its not 100% spot on, but tried & true and should get you real close depending upon wheel /brake choice. Pretty much all the info you need along and w help here you should be fine.
Banshee (Baja) race bike,+ 2 A Arms,L.E.Ds, Toomey, +4 stroker IMS tank, run flats.
96 GSXR SRAD, Future Yoshimura rep.
85 custom Tri-Z
RZ/YZR bike(project)
86 VFR750 RC24 Merkel replica (project)
Royal Enfield Bullet 500

2bang
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 3:15 am
Location: South Florida

Re: Correct Year Range for FZ600 Swinger Swap PLZ???

#24 Post by 2bang » Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:55 am

LOL no, I wouldn't go cutting just on someone else's measurements...
I certainly will disassemble... at some point..... then measure carefully, even bring both arms to the machinest just to be sure.

Yeah, its to get ahead of the game.... but I also had another hope. To find out from those with experience what the exact details are, since after reading so many threads with slightly different results and combinations of parts, I remained confused.
I'd hope to clarify the details for the sake of "the database".... perhaps worthy of a sticky, at least in spirit.
Then I realized... given how few posts there are these days..... maybe this bike is finally going the way of the dodo... that I might be the very last guy who wants to do this conversion, and hasn't yet..
Among the last of the few ppl who still have an interest in this old bike.....
So what does it matter I guess... I'll figure it out...... once I have all the pieces in my hands, and a chance to pull it all apart and measure.

I also hope to very clearly understand, in order to explain to the machinist.
I don't currently have one, since I'm new to this area.
I found one nearby through google.... but he makes it clear he's a V-Twin guy.... and you know how they are.
Often... usually..... (but not always).... V-Twin snobs... hate jap bikes.... refuse to work on them, after giving you a lecture with attitude.... maybe you know the type.
Its 50/50... maybe he's that guy, maybe he's just looking to make a buck doing honest work.
But I want exact knowledge in hand, in case he's less than amenable, and with a snotty tude.

Any measurements you might get a chance to make would be helpful KP...
As are the pix and infos TKM!!

I AM working on something somewhat different.... at least AFAIK..
(since you asked lol)
Its to be.. a 1988 GSX750F Katana front end.. 41mm forks/17x3" wheel up front, allballs sells conversion bearings.. (just a thin shim above and below)..
Katana rear wheel.. 17x3.5 with a 150 or 160 tire on it.
I already have a GS-550 cush-hub.. Figured I'd use the katana caliper and carrier.. (which i also have already)..
Not exactly sure what to do about the stay arm issue... guess I'll figure that out too, once I start into it.
All take a 17mm axle.
(getting curious to see if it MIGHT even fit in the stock RZ swingarm, except for axle size, which could be compensated for with bearings... tho of course the FZ arm is preferable)
240mm rotor.
Wanted to use a 220 first gen GSXR rotor with underslung stay arm, with it's caliper and carrier... till i realized, katana is 4 rotor bolts, GSXR is 5 bolts.
BTW... katana 600 stuff is all the same... FWIW.

What is the Stay-arm attachment like on the FZ arm?
Now that we're on to it :smt003

Since it came up....
What exactly is the linkage mod about??
Shorter arms to compensate for lower ride height with the FZ arm I gather??
I already have a set of "Jackup" dogbones from Nigel @ NK...
(they were bought for the stock bike, just to get the rear up, before contemplating the arm swap)
Is that all I'll need??

Questo... I certainly would appreciate that PDF, IF/WHEN you possibly can!

It bugs me that production tolerances can be THAT far off.... that the engine could be so offset, as to spoil sprocket alignment, even tho the rear wheel is centered, and both wheels are inline...
Just sayin...

Thanks, as always, to all!!!!!

Now if only I could find an FZ arm... and at... ahem... a reasonable price.... :smt030 :smt033 :smt003
Greg

User avatar
Questo vecchio rz
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:55 pm
Location: Reconquista of California

Re: Correct Year Range for FZ600 Swinger Swap PLZ???

#25 Post by Questo vecchio rz » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:09 pm

I am traveling will Lightly for work but when I get back I will get that up and organized to send to you I am pretty sure the only thing that matters is the Machining to the exact width of the stock swinger but it doesn't hurt to be more careful this write-up was written by a former member here and at least a dozen individuals used his instructions and he himself had done it 4 times so I am fairly sure it works but as you I wouldn't detail and measure and go over everything in my head before I am doing that now with my FZR400RR Delta box swingarm although it was on a rolling and running machine I don't trust it until I understand it... which I understand as you do his is not as easy as many make it to be
Banshee (Baja) race bike,+ 2 A Arms,L.E.Ds, Toomey, +4 stroker IMS tank, run flats.
96 GSXR SRAD, Future Yoshimura rep.
85 custom Tri-Z
RZ/YZR bike(project)
86 VFR750 RC24 Merkel replica (project)
Royal Enfield Bullet 500

User avatar
tkm433
Posts: 166
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 9:56 pm

Re: Correct Year Range for FZ600 Swinger Swap PLZ???

#26 Post by tkm433 » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:35 pm

2bang wrote: Since it came up....
What exactly is the linkage mod about??
Shorter arms to compensate for lower ride height with the FZ arm I gather??
I already have a set of "Jackup" dogbones from Nigel @ NK...
(they were bought for the stock bike, just to get the rear up, before contemplating the arm swap)
Is that all I'll need??


:smt030 :smt033 :smt003
If you notice on the FZ600 arm the linkage mounting point is lower on the arm than the RZ where it is more in the middle of the arm. The mod to the linkage that I did was to make up for the difference in the locations of the mounting points to allow for a correct ride height.
Image

2bang
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 3:15 am
Location: South Florida

Re: Correct Year Range for FZ600 Swinger Swap PLZ???

#27 Post by 2bang » Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:42 am

Questo vecchio rz wrote:I don't trust it until I understand it... which I understand as you do this is not as easy as many make it to be
Amen Brother!
tkm433 wrote:The mod to the linkage that I did was to make up for the difference in the locations of the mounting points to allow for a correct ride height.
Yes, I'd noticed some time ago that the linkage mount point is lower on the FZ arm than on the RZ arm...
But wouldn't that nescessitate a LONGER linkage arm to correct for ride height??
Could you plz clarify on the linkage mod? Is the longer arm in the pic stock and the modded one shortened?
Also, do you happen to recall the length it needs to be?

Dang'd if I didn't just get that so called "jackup dogbone" to raise the rear ride height with the stock arm...
Fooey..
Greg

RuZty
-----
-----
Posts: 3584
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:11 pm
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada

Re: Correct Year Range for FZ600 Swinger Swap PLZ???

#28 Post by RuZty » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:43 am

Longer link arms will allow the bottom of the shock to go further through the swingarm,lowering the bike.
While you are pondering offsetting the pivot to centre the wheel between the arms consider that you will now also have an offset between the suspension links and the shock and linkage mounts on the frame, which are centred to the pivot.

User avatar
tkm433
Posts: 166
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 9:56 pm

Re: Correct Year Range for FZ600 Swinger Swap PLZ???

#29 Post by tkm433 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:52 am

2bang wrote: Could you plz clarify on the linkage mod? Is the longer arm in the pic stock and the modded one shortened?
Also, do you happen to recall the length it needs to be?

In the imaged posted some where above the longer linkage arm is the stock RZ 350 arm from my 1984 RZ350. The shorter are is one that I had my local machine shop cut down and weld to the shorter length. I also had to remove the threaded end of the stock RZ arm where it mounts in the FZ arm. That was easy with a cut off wheel.

Sorry but I do not have the info as to how much I had the machine shop remove.

2bang
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 3:15 am
Location: South Florida

Re: Correct Year Range for FZ600 Swinger Swap PLZ???

#30 Post by 2bang » Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:57 am

RuZty wrote:Longer link arms will allow the bottom of the shock to go further through the swingarm,lowering the bike.
That clears up that part!
I wish one could just flip the darn thing over... but I know you can't...
RuZty wrote: While you are pondering offsetting the pivot to centre the wheel between the arms consider that you will now also have an offset between the suspension links and the shock and linkage mounts on the frame, which are centred to the pivot.
Got it! So that answers the original question....
tkm433 wrote: I also had to remove the threaded end of the stock RZ arm where it mounts in the FZ arm.
That kinda confuses me, so I guess I'll just have to see when I have all the items in my hands....
I guess I've finally arrived at that point...
But thanks for the heads up!!!

Thanks to all for all the help! It mostly HAS clarified things for me.
Hope nobody will mind if I bump this thread when finally I get to actually DOING this!
Greg

Post Reply