RZ/RD 350 & Misc. 2-Stroke Tech BBS

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:30 pm 
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Guys I have stated in my build thread that my 99 R1 forks are way too stiff.

Has anybody re-sprung / re-valved them & are satisfied? I remember a post that said who to contact for this service, as they had done several. For the life of me I cannot find that post.

Stock spring a .92. Race Tech recommends (on their web site) .83 springs. The lowest they have on their site is .85.

I know I have to do something. My shock is stiff also. FZ/F4i combo. First I am going to try a Fox shock I have laying around. If that don't satisfy me I might go the R6 route.

Either modify what I have or gain weight. :smt004

Any suggestions? :smt102 [smilie=notworthy.gif]

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:04 am 
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Whymee wrote:
Guys I have stated in my build thread that my 99 R1 forks are way too stiff.

Has anybody re-sprung / re-valved them & are satisfied? I remember a post that said who to contact for this service, as they had done several. For the life of me I cannot find that post.

Stock spring a .92. Race Tech recommends (on their web site) .83 springs. The lowest they have on their site is .85.

I know I have to do something. My shock is stiff also. FZ/F4i combo. First I am going to try a Fox shock I have laying around. If that don't satisfy me I might go the R6 route.

Either modify what I have or gain weight. :smt004

Any suggestions? :smt102 [smilie=notworthy.gif]



Id recommend not wasting any more time $ and effort with the R-6 or F4 CBR etc..There all wrong..completley. YOU HAVE A FOX...USE IT :smt002 If your FOX has the adj ride heighth option...if no even more of a reason! Fox has a refferal rebuil co.for the old shocks,as does RZUnlimited,he might even have a ride height. conv? Its not that the FOX is that great,when compared to other RZ Specific shocks, but it is far better than the others,its designed just for the application and since you already have it..its cheaper than buying a proper shock such as a Penske,Hagon etc.. Although I may be speaking to soon...I have no idea what they charge to refurbish a FOX,Im sure other will chime in on what they have paid.
Good Luck

For the front,check Race Tech or LE /Linderman Engineering. It would probably require a phone call and details of your setup. LE has done a fair amount of TZ/RD/RZ work there familiar with the RZ. It aint cheap,almost the same cost as the used forks depending on what you paid. Usually for us that means $300.00-$600.00 for used USD or tricked out TZ/TZR GSXR etc..
Good Luck

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:11 am 
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This old RZ wrote:
Id recommend not wasting any more time $ and effort with the R-6 or F4 CBR etc..There all wrong..completley.


How do you figure this? I agree if he has a Fox it is option #1, and the CBR spring rate is double the stock RZ, just because it fits doesn't make it right, but the R6 shock is a huge bang for the buck improvement.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:37 pm 
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RuZty wrote:
This old RZ wrote:
Id recommend not wasting any more time $ and effort with the R-6 or F4 CBR etc..There all wrong..completley.


How do you figure this? I agree if he has a Fox it is option #1, and the CBR spring rate is double the stock RZ, just because it fits doesn't make it right, but the R6 shock is a huge bang for the buck improvement.



Its just a multitude of issues,ride height issues is too severe,the internal valving is wrong,the spring rates are probably wrong unless you fit that range of weight,rebound dampaning,compression,frame modifications,and the fact that these shocks are already probably 10 years old and in need of a rebuild themselves. Why bother?
Just becuase its a " bang for the buck"..doesnt make it a proper option. Its the exact same thing he is facing with the front end conversion..its a cheap total conversion "bang for the buck" ..BUT now it has to be totally re-valved at a large expense to correct the issues, let alone the rake /trail /offset issues that are involved.
People will state.. that "oh its not for the track" its for the street" well IMO thats even more of a incentive to do a proper shock,its safer it handles better and you dont have to modify the frame like on some of the conversions, no geometry/chassis issues ..crash hard on the track,generally your okay...crash hard on the street its often 50/50. whether you ever see your bike again let alone anything else.
Here is a short reply from another site regarding the conversions ,Its from RZsUnlimited and documents many of the issues I see ..its not that Im saying go out and buy a $400-00-$1000.00 shock..but I guess I am :smt002 even a cheapo $400.00 will perform in the long run...far better and last longer and be correct and safe!,near the limit in a moment of throttle induced forgetfullness :smt003 ..one may not have a chassis binding/incorrect valving ,compression/rebound issue quickly followed by a ....OH Fu#k!! moment.... right before it all goes really bad :smt002 Some may have no issuess with this..I do,and dont want to see some one spend $ unnecessarilly or even worse get hurt. I wont promote the practice,I just cant. If one decides to,then so be It :smt001
But outside of the fact that it costs 20 bucks on the Internet plus bearings...Thats where it ends for me.


OUOTE: RZsUnlimited."The CBR600 F4i rear shock does not have the proper valving for the RZ350. The handling characteristics change for the worse with this shock rather than for the better. It completely changes the bikes geometry as is evident by the raised ride height sitting on the side stand. The rear wheel touches the ground when on the center stand and sits too far upright on the side stand requiring a shorter side stand to prevent the bike from falling over.

I have a customer who installed one and had nothing but problems. The chain would tighten up when he tried to push the bike around but would loosen up if he would sit on the bike. This is because it raises the ride height by an inch or more. This is why the stock side stand will not work with this shock. He brought the bike by for me to look at it and you could see when you would load the rear suspension by sitting on the bike the chain would slacken to stock specification but when you would unload the rear the chain would tighten to the point that it was unsafe. When riding the bike the chain would slacken and tighten as you would ride over bumps and in the normal way the rear suspension loads and unloads. Not a good thing at all and not a shock I would ever recommend using on the RZ350 nor would any professional suspension tuner.

I once asked Yamaha factory trained suspension tuner what he thought of putting the F4 or R6 shock on the RZ350. He said it was a very bad idea for so many reasons and advised against it. That's coming from someone who knows suspension better than most.

The bottom line is that the whole CRR600 F4i rear shock craze for the RZ350 and the R6 rear shock for that matter started with a guy on Ebay who discovered that if the bushings were changed and spacers made or what have you he could get the shock to fit the RZ350. He figured it was a good way to replace the stock shock which had failed and at the same time make some money since you can buy the shocks all day long on Ebay for under $25 and then re-sell them for $140 or more. Cheap is not always better. Unfortunately because it's so inexpensive there have been a lot of these shocks that have been sold and put on RZ350's creating a false sense of improvement.

I have a customer who was building a RZ350 for track days and did not want to spend a lot of money on a rear shock. I warned him about the cheap options out there but he decided to try a F4i shock anyway. He took the bike to the track and was very dissatisfied with the response of the rear suspension. He was determined not to spend big bucks on a shock though.

He then decided to try the R6 shock which required cutting the frame to make room for the top mount. Initially he was telling me how proud he was that he got it to fit and again it was so cheap on Ebay. Well that was short lived. He got it on the track and again was very disappointed with the rear suspension. Back to the drawing board.

This time he was determined to prove that he did not need to spend the big bucks for a quality shock so he bought a used Works shock (made for the bike) off Ebay for $300 and again took it out on the track. This time although it was a lot better than both the CBR and R6 shock he still was not thrilled with the way the bike handled.

He pretty much gave up on the RZ350 and just put it in the back of the garage and bought a new CBR1000. He was thrilled with his new bike and obvious advantages it had over his RZ350 on the track. Months later he called to say he was going to put his RZ350 back on the street.

He had no plans to ever ride it on the track again. He changed out the race bodywork etc for the stock yellow and black bodywork. He told me he still wouldn't mind changing out the Works shock for an Ohlins, Fox or Penske if he could find a used one for a good price. I told him that I did have a Fox that we just rebuilt for sale. We made a deal and I sent it to him.

He called me back after installing it to tell me that I was right all along. He could not believe how much of a difference and improvement the shock made. He said he could have saved a ton of time and aggravation by just listening to me in the first place. So there you have it. This is my experience with shocks that were never intended for the RZ350 and my advise is to steer clear of them altogether.

Ohlins, Fox or Penske are the best. Works and Hagon would be a less expensive alternative and fine for the street. All of these shocks
are made for the bike which is what you want."

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:13 pm 
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WOW! this is such valuable, first hand info. Wished I'd seen it before buying an R6 yellow shock and bushings. I have not installed it and even have a remote reservoir shock that came on a roller I purchased. I have not figured out what it is yet and may post a pic or other info to find out what it is.

I was disturbed to find out the R6 shock raised the ride height and about the center stand problem all after I had purchased it months ago that I was probably not going to use it. Hey, anyone want an R6 shock for free with bushings. Just pay shipping.

Steve

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:21 am 
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Depends what you want to achieve. The R6 rate is close to stock and it is more adjustable. As a replacement for a worn out 25 year old stocker it is well worth doing, it will not make you more likely to crash unless you screw up the installation. That applies to any work or modifications you do on your bike. Is it as good as a purpose built aftermarket shock? Absolutely not, which is why I have a Penske for my project bike. I think if the quoted story had started with a stock shock he would have preferred the R6 to that, but since it is third hand information, who knows. I don't know what the centerstand issues are, I haven't had any. Rear ride height went up about an inch, so the bike steers a bit quicker which is OK by me.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:53 am 
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Always good to hear the opposing side. Naw, I'll keep my shock in case I want to try it myself.... I like the instructions JonW provided... This is all good winter reading. We Northern Hemi folks need inspiration in January.... I can't even get enough energy to go to the garage when it is so cold out there. I have wheels awaitin' to be polished.... :smt024

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'85 KR/RZ US. Tank is seeping causing a blister in paint.....


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:13 pm 
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The R6 shock works very well for me and was a huge upgrade over the stocker monoshock. I've pushed and beat on my bike pretty hard with it over the last 3 years and I've never had any adverse handling effects attributed to the R6 shock. No centerstand issues at all for me and I also like the increased saddle/ ride height it brought on. I'm sure a Fox, Penske, or Hagon would be nicer but that also comes with increased $. I've read about some issues some have had w/R6 shock but I say don't knock it 'til you've tried it". :smt018

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:27 pm 
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I'll take anyones R6 shock if they only want me to pay the shipping, feel free to email me :)

I love how people who sell things deride the other options and if you do it the right way it looks like advice. There is nothing like adding a sense of 'this is snake oil and scummy' by saying something was invented by some guy on ebay so he could make a profit. Thats very funny really. We are all on ebay. Its like calling someone a wanker I guess...

Ok, I'm not saying the R6 is as good as a rebuilt Fox, but not all of us has a Fox/nitron/hagon budget and would be riding round with clapped out OEM RZ shocks if they didnt have an R6 unit on hand.

Center stand works fine for me, its sat on it in the garage now. Its maybe not as high as it was by a few mm when on it, but sits there fine.

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Last edited by JonW on Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:30 pm 
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JonW wrote:
I'll take anyones R6 shock if they only want me to pay the shipping, feel free to email me :)

I love how people who sell things deride the other options and if you do it the right way it looks like advice. I'm not saying the R6 is as good as a rebuilt Fox, but not all of us has a Fox/nitron/hagon budget and would be riding round with clapped out OEM RZ shocks if they didnt have an R6 unit on hand.


Well said Jon! :smt023 :smt045

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:32 pm 
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haha, Ive edited and said more now...LOL

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:20 pm 
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Centre stand issue was mainly for the CBR shock. i dont think the R6 shock raises the rear too much.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:19 am 
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Edited this for clarity.....Come on now..some of this is kinda silly..its purely DIY pride talking we can all guilty of this to some extent :smt005 ..Lets be clear its not as if I or someone else is slighting others for not "ponying up the money",nor being arrogant You know DAMMNED WELL thats not what Im implying,or RZsUnlimited :smt018

Advice was ASKED FOR...and ADVICE WAS GIVEN..no one needs to get ..even remotley defensive. NO ONE DERIDED anyone. There is plain truth to some of the comments,I was here when these shock conversions started..next thing you know they were all over E-Bay..I do remember and it was originally one guy He used to advertise a "disclaimer" I think years later even the Economy Cycles does the same ,with a "disclaimer" but dont hold me to it on that last one..not that I really care but those are , the facts.
Hey if someone wants to make a buck..thats fine. But the shocks are clearly not optimal. For all the obvious reasons which were explained,not alot to argue on that front, But it does It work,for its intended purpose a dirt cheap substitute.
In addition these shocks are not being utilized by RZ enthusiasts who cannot afford a shock...thats just silly. Be honest..on this point :smt002 RZ owners are spending anywhere from $300.00-$10000.00 for pipes, $300.00 for carb swaps and jetting setups nedles and jets,cables, Hundreds of dollars for reed cages,programmable CDI ignitions, front fork set up, rearset assemblies let alone engine/crank rebuilds it goes on and on..and all of these cost real close or far exceed the price of a Hagon shock..or even one of the Works variants. Fox shocks are obviouslly at least 15-20 years old now there relativley cheap,when one is located rebuilds are in the 200 range,so feasibly would be around the $400.00 mark..thats right in the ballpark with most other modifications.

So when it comes down to it the cheapest RZ shock option IS well within your average RZ guys budget if one so desires. Not alot of people are aware of Works/Hagon/Maxton and others that could possibly be why they think all shocks carry Penske/Ohlins,Elka /WP prices.
Like I said it was just advice asked for,and one guys opinion Im not out to slight nor embarrass anyone...and if you find it works for you...GREAT! I'm certainlly no suspension expert,but Im educated enough on the matter and from experience to accuratley give my opinion. I can almost without question say that if one rides a RZ at speed on a track either race or track day,or a high speed road.."AT THE LIMIT"... MIND YOU :smt002 your going to discover the weakness of the shock..If one is riding around on the street spirited or just for leisure..youre not going to come up and bump on the window of the conversion shocks limits. Race track, track days reveal things you never experience on the road you can ride for 20 years on the road...ride 1 day on the track and its all new. I think that is where my opinion...and RZs Unlimited are based on. Not to put anyone down...at all. LIke I said it is a cheap swap,find a 10-15,20 year old used shock depending upon what one utilizes,then an issue of a frame modification and 20-40 dollars worth of bushings. And one can ride the bike like that if the.y desire for the rest of their ownership..and be perfectly happy. If your happy ..be happy! Dont let my "do it right or dont do it at all" philosiphy deter you or anyone interested.its just who I am..and there are alot of shops and people like minded. RZsUnlimited is 100% okay with stating his opinion,Hes a great enthusiast and caretaker of these machines and has helped many enjoy their dream...he does not cut corners and his reputation is very good,due to him not settling for options that dont fit the caliber of builds..it would be a diservice to his customer base..thats a GOOD THING :smt003 :smt023
PS..Ive never met the man,Ive just viewed his work ethics and met many of his happy customers..he is expensive..probably too expensive for me right now without question..but quality is rarely cheap nor found in bargains.
Alright , lets get back to enjoying these old smelly,smokey lil bikes :smt023 :smt001

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HAPPY 30th YAMAHA YVPS 350 1983-2013. DONT OVER THINK IT , JUST BUILD IT AND BE JUST AS FAST AND RELIABLE


Last edited by This old RZ on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:15 am 
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Well if you want to get the best suspension for your bike then you find the best local suspension shop for the type of riding you do (road, race, etc etc). You go there and talk the guy and take his advice and let him work wonders on what you have fitted, even fitting new forks and shocks or welding the frame as per his advice. Sure you will always need new springs and new oil and a bunch of parts including seals. it wont be cheap but it will be right. just whacking in a generic shock from a supplier wont be the best ever setup. You need front and rear set ups done together by the same people based on your factors. You then need to ride it and report back and make changes.

Anyway, I agree it's a moot point. The R6 shock is a cheap fix to replace old RZ units as you say, the F4i isnt as good a fit as the R6 when doing the work, tho it doesnt need frame cutting. People also suggest the Fazer 600, but who knows.

Perhaps think of these as the gutted original exhaust pipes of the pipe market. If you want better suspension fit an off the shelf, think Toomey pipes. If you want to get it done right get the suspension for you in your environment hen like pipes you need them hand built for your application.

...and just like pipes, everyone has their favourite.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:24 am 
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The f4i has been good on my bike despite the public opinion, and I have no issue with the stand. Guess everyone has different preferences.

End of the day it handles better than before, and if I was racing I'd be better off starting with an rs250 or similar anyway.

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