Low Budget Purple Project

Got a customizing or restoration project? Discuss it here

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Off Road
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Re: Low Budget Purple Project

#1201 Post by Off Road » Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:34 pm

Hey folks. I’m still alive and kicking, and collecting a few more parts for the project bike.

The Project bike is kept at my shop, which is 25 miles out North of where I live.
So, the majority of my riding is up and down some pretty flat, prairie roads.
As a result, the center of the BT016 rear tire is getting a pretty good flat spot on it.
(When I looked closer at the front tire, I can see that it has an almost 1” wide flat spot along the center)

Image


The FZR400 rims require a 110/70-17 front tire, and a 140/70-18 rear, so tire options are somewhat limited.
If I swapped out my rear wheel for a 17” unit, then I have a much larger selection of tires.
But that means sourcing a wheel and cush drive and axle and brakes and custom spacers and...and...and.
Damn, there’s got to be a better (easier) way.

Since, I work at a bike shop, I took a look at what tires my suppliers were carrying in my sizes,
and what the Canadian Dollar List Price was.

Bias Tires
Kenda Cruiser K671 --- $131 front, $167 rear – Total $298.00 ($229.00 US)
Bridgestone BT45 ----- $195 front, $231 rear – Total $426.00 ($328.00 US)
Avon AM26Roadrider - $188 front, $318 rear – Total $506.00 ($389.00 US)
Pirelli Demon ----------- $234 front, $293 rear – Total $527.00 ($405.00 US)

Radial Tires
Shinko 006 Podium --- $124 front, $173 rear – Total $297.00 ($228.00 US)
Metzeler Z8 ------------ $229 front, $345 rear – Total $574.00 ($442.00 US)



Working in a bike shop has its perks. At our shop, it’s a huge discount on parts.
My price on the Z8’s, $308.00 (228.00 US).


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Zombie
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Re: Low Budget Purple Project

#1202 Post by Zombie » Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:41 am

Maybe try something with a higher treadwear rating? Might get some more miles out of it.
-Z

hondaror
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Re: Low Budget Purple Project

#1203 Post by hondaror » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:00 am

If I use the same set up, maybe Steve will give me his old tires to wear out on the track. After I use up all his old rubber, I can sell him my old track tires.
Rory
2 1984 RZ350s
1985 RZ350
9 1986-1990 RZ350s
2000 ST2
2005 749
2005 749 with 999 engine

RuZty
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Re: Low Budget Purple Project

#1204 Post by RuZty » Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:29 am

Using corners to remove corners, how Zen.

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Re: Low Budget Purple Project

#1205 Post by hondaror » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:16 am

RuZty wrote:Using corners to remove corners, how Zen.
Lol, I have yet to finish that book. I've had it for years. Time to reread.
Rory
2 1984 RZ350s
1985 RZ350
9 1986-1990 RZ350s
2000 ST2
2005 749
2005 749 with 999 engine

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motoholic71
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Re: Low Budget Purple Project

#1206 Post by motoholic71 » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:58 pm

Hi mate.
I'd be interested to know a few details if you care to share them because I bought an '89 FZR400 (not RR) with a blown motor and want to swap the complete front and rear ends to the RZ frame.

The front I have pretty much done, lucky both bikes even share the same master brake cylinder.

The rear is complicated, I cannot at the moment make any progress because life got in the way but it seems that the shock and pivot link points may need moving to different spots.

But my question is regarding chain clearence to the tyre edge, if you have to use an offset front sprocket or not with the 140 tyre ?

Most search I did people are using 160 tyres on a 17" conversion from RR bikes but I don't want to do that either.

Thanks
Ask me about the new free App i-wipe 2.0, the app that replaces toilet paper

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Off Road
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Re: Low Budget Purple Project

#1207 Post by Off Road » Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:43 pm

Hey Motoholic.

Right now I am using a 10 mm off-set front sprocket.
I needed this in order to get clearance for the 150/70-18 Rear tire (mounted on the 4" x 18" FZR400 rear wheel).

I took a look at the clearance's last night, and got the following measurements:
6 mm clearance between the chain and rear tire,
8 mm clearance between the chain and RZ frame.

I posted the following info back on page 3, but here's a recap of what I did to make the FZR swingarm work with the RZ frame.

I knew that the Upper Dogbone Pivot location on the FZ600 swing-arm worked,
so I removed the oem dogbone pivot from the FZR400 swing-arm,
had the swing-arm cross brace boxed back in,
and had new dogbone pivots installed at the same location as the FZ600 dog-bone pivots.
(155 mm from the Swing-arm pivot, and 30 mm offset (down from the center-line of the swing-arm.

Image

Image
motoholic71 wrote: But my question is regarding chain clearance to the tire edge, if you have to use an offset front sprocket or not with the 140 tire ?
So to answer your question.
There is 6 mm of clearance using the 150 tire
The 140 tire is 10 mm narrower than the 150 tire.
This should give me 11 mm of clearance between the chain and tire.
Without using the off-set sprocket, I should (in theory), still have 1 mm of clearance.

motoholic71 wrote:The rear is complicated, .....it seems that the shock and pivot link points may need moving to different spots.
I was thinking about that and have some more info at the end of my next post
Last edited by Off Road on Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Low Budget Purple Project

#1208 Post by Off Road » Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:43 pm

So, the new tire will have a smaller diameter and will lower the rear axle by 7 mm. This will affect the rake and trail.

This got me thinking about the handling of the project bike. The steering on my track bike, is much quicker.
(Both bikes are using the FZ sing-arm setup).
This got me thinking about the ride height decrease that you get when using the FZ600 swing-arm.

A couple of years ago, I had a set of FZ600 dog-bones shortened by 9 mm, so that I could regain some of the ride height, but I never got around to installing them.
I was busy riding the bike and couldn’t be bothered to try them out.

A few weeks ago, I dug them out and installed them to see how they’d fit.
They didn’t. I had to do bit of grinding to get clearance for the rebound adjuster on the Ohlins shock.
Now that I know they fit, I can have them powder coated.

Image



With the bike on the center-stand, the front wheel on the ground, and the stock 117 mm long, FZ600 dog-bones,
the distance from the center of the rear axle to the ground was 383 mm,.
With the shorter 108 mm long dog-bones, the distance from the center of the axle to ground was 353 mm.

That’s a ride height increase of 30 mm (1.18”)

Image


3 years ago, I spent the Winter evaluating the rear suspension geometry on the RZ350, and developed a spreadsheet to calculate how changing parts (dog-bone, shock, swing-arm, etc),
would affect the suspension setup.

After installing the shorter dog-bones, I dug out the spreadsheet to see what it said.


Stock RZ swing-arm and dog-bones.

Image


Swing-arm angle is 11.7*
Rear axle is 99 mm below a horizontal line drawn through the swing-arm pivot.
Note: the swing-arm angle is always Positive. That means that the rear axle is always lower than the swing-arm pivot.
It takes about 625 ft/lb of force to get a 97 mm of rear wheel travel (40 mm of shock travel)



Stock FZ600 swing-arm and dog-bones.

Image


The FZ dogbones are 21 mm shorter than the RZ dog-bones, the swing-arm upper dog-bone pivot is closer to the swing-arm pivot,
and is off-set from the swing-arm center-line by 30 mm.

The new Swing-arm angle is 7.7*.
Rear axle is now only 65.5 mm below a horizontal line drawn through the swing-arm pivot.
There is a 33.6 mm (1.32”) decrease in the ride height, compared to the RZ.
There is a 5 mm decrease in rear wheel travel.
When the shock has compressed by 40 mm, there is now only 92 mm of rear wheel travel.

I find it interesting to see how the new parts affect the amount of force required to compress the shock by 10, 20, 30 400 mm.
With the FZ parts, during the first ½ of the rear wheel travel, it takes less force on the rear wheel to compress the spring by a given amount, so the suspension is softer.
During the second ½ or the rear wheel travel, it takes more force on the rear wheel to compress the spring, so the uspension is stiffer than the stock RZ setup.
Another really interesting thing to note, after the rear wheel has traveled about 60 mm, the swing-arm angle becomes Negative.

This means that the rear axle is now higher than the swing-arm pivot.
Motorcycles have a force acting on them called Anti-squat.
When a driving force is applied to the rear wheel, it is transferred to the rest of the bike through the swing-arm, to the swing-arm pivot.
Due to the swing-arm angle, this force is trying to push the swing-arm pivot Forward and Up, at the same time.
When the rear axle is above the swing-arm pivot the force is pushing the pivot Forward and Down.

This is called pro-squat, and from what I’ve read, it’s not good.
However, on my bike with the FZ swing-arm, I don’t really notice any problems.



Stock FZ600 swing-arm & dog-bones with Ohlins rear shock.

Image


The Ohlins has a softer spring rate (10.19 kg/mm) than the stock shock (10.5 kg/mm).
In addition the Ohlins shock is 2 mm longer than the stock shock, and has 1 mm more pre-load.
The longer shock increases the Swing-arm angle to 8.3*.
And increases the ride height by 6 mm (1/4”).
There is a 2 mm increase in rear wheel travel.

The softer spring rate on the Ohlins, decreases the amount of force that’s required to compress the shock, compared to the stock RZ shock.
But overall, the suspension is still softer than the RZ for the first half of it travel, and stiffer than the RZ in the last half of the rear wheel travel.

The swing-arm angle still goes negative, so there is still a pro-squat tendency to this setup.





Stock FZ600 swing-arm & dog-bones with Ohlins rear shock and 9 mm shorter dog-bones.

Image


Swing-arm angle is increased to 11.8* (0.1* steeper than stock).
Rear axle is now 100.2 mm below a horizontal line drawn through the swing-arm pivot, which is a 1.2 mm increase over a stock RZ.
The Ride Height increased by 29.3 mm (1.15”), compared to using stock FZ600 dog-bones.
The rear wheel travel has decreased by 6 mm (1/4”), when the shock is compressed 40 mm.

The suspension becomes stiffer throughout its entire range.
The first half of suspension travel is just a little stiffer than the stock RZ, but it gets much stiffer during the second half of rear wheel travel.

With this setup, the swing-arm angle is always positive, so the rear axle is always below the swing-arm pivot.



So, my spreadsheet says that the shorter (108 mm) dog-bones will give a 29.3 mm increase in ride height.
And when I measured the ride height increase using an extremely accurate tape measure, I found that they gave me a 30 mm (1.2”) ride height increase.
Close enough.

The spreadsheet also shows that rear wheel travel will decrease by 9 mm (0.35”), and the suspension will become much stiffer than it currently is.

Can’t say I’m looking forward to this, but I guess that I’ll just have to see how it goes.



The increase in ride height is also going to steepen the rake.
The new, smaller diameter rear tire is going to decrease the rake.
I’ll calculate the new rake and trail values next time I’m really bored and have nothing better to do.

After Motoholic mentioned moving the dogbone pivots, I remember having the same thoughts.
On page 3, I said the following;
Off Road wrote:
Off Road wrote: I really wanted to move the pivot location, up or back on the swing-arm, to increase ride height.
However, I was concerned about dog-bone / tire clearance, so I stayed with the stock FZ600 pivot location.
It turns out that there is about 1" of clearance between the dog-bones and tire.
I could have moved the pivot location back (towards the rear axle) by 1/4".
It would have cost the same and raised the ride height by 1". Damn. :smt012

Image

Just for fun, I moved the upper dog-bone pivot location in the spreadsheet, to see what would happen.
Moving the dog-bone pivot another 5 mm away from the swing-arm pivot, increased the ride height by about 1/4", and made the suspension stiffer.

Moving the dog-bone pivot 10 mm awat from the swing-arm pivot, increased ride height by 1/2", and made the suspension Much stiffer.

Moving the dog-bone pivot 15 mm away from the swing-arm pivot, increased ride height by 3/4", and made the suspension Super stiff.
It requires about 30 percent more force to compress the shock, compared to the stock RZ.
However, I'm not sure is you can move the dog-bone pivot a full 15 mm, and still have the dog-bones clear the tire.

Here's a look at what happens when the Dog-bone pivot is moved 10 mm further away from the swing-arm pivot

Image


Kinda glad I decided not to do that on my swing-arm.



So, to summarize this long and winding post,

I’m going to experiment with some new tires.
I’m going to experiment with a new suspension setup.
I’m still planning on experimenting with a new motor for the bike.

And if you've been counting, this is post 11 of 12, before I reveal exactly what I've got planned for the new motor.
However, if you’ve been following along with what's been said on the last page, then I’m sure that most of you know exactly what's happening with new motor.

However, just in case you’re still not sure what’s up, I’ll give you a couple more hints.

1 – The last picture of the Bike.

2 – The next picture.


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RuZty
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Re: Low Budget Purple Project

#1209 Post by RuZty » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:52 am

It always makes me cringe when people start cutting and welding suspension links to make stuff fit without taking the time to fully understand the impact those changes have on suspension behaviour. A few mm can make a big difference. Kudos to you for taking the time to properly analyze everything.
If you were to graph the linkage ratio (wheel travel vs. shock travel) you would be able to see how each change affects the ride through it's travel. The danger point (maybe not possible with this setup) is when the curve reverses and wheel travel increases per unit shock travel. You can run out of travel in a hurry at the worst time.

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Re: Low Budget Purple Project

#1210 Post by kpke » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:55 pm

motoholic71

Here is some hands-on experience that differs a bit from Mr. Off Road. There is just a bit less analysis here also. Off Road does a thorough job of that. :smt023 :smt045

I have 2 of these conversions completed, however they are both FZR600 front-end/both wheels and FZ600 swing arms. I used to think the aluminum swing arms on the 400 and 600 are identical but something tells me there may be slight differences on the FZR400. I think Off Road knows of this difference.

In both cases I am NOT using offset frontal sprockets. The rear sprocket carriers were machined down (4mm if I remember right) to get proper chain alignment.

In both cases the stock FZ600 linkage components were used. Ride height on shocks are at max distance allowable.

The one that I ride all the time has a 150/60-18 Shinko rear tire. (This is the only manufacturer tire sold in the US in this size.) I am not at home at the moment so can't measure, but I would say there is ¼ to 3/8 inch clearance from the chain to the tire. A 140 tire certainly would give more clearance. The bike in reference here will have a 17 inch rear wheel conversion soon. I have most of the parts in hand but still waiting on a few.


The one below came with the shortened welded parts shown below. However when assembled you can see that the shock was contacting the swing arm. I don't know how much shortening was done here, but it appears to be a whole lot more than Off Road. Again, I went back to the stock parts.

I hope this helps.
fz2.jpg
fz2.jpg (99.43 KiB) Viewed 4023 times
fz3.jpg
fz3.jpg (47.81 KiB) Viewed 4023 times
fz1.jpg
fz1.jpg (62.98 KiB) Viewed 4023 times

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Off Road
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Re: Low Budget Purple Project

#1211 Post by Off Road » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:22 pm

I started this 12 post engine reveal 1 year ago, on January 18, 2016.
I gave myself 12 posts, so that I had lots of time to accomplish great and wonderful things.
Sadly, that didn’t happen.
At this time, I still just have a pile of parts, and to make it even worse, it’s an incomplete pile of parts. :smt009

But, I said that I’d fill you in, so here’s what I know.

When I first mentioned the Plan, I was purposely vague about what I was going to do.
I also mentioned that you would need to have a good attention to detail in order to get any hints about the project,
from the pictures that I was posting, and the stories that I was telling.

My engine project started with a pair of stock 31K cylinders and dreams of a faster RZ.
Then I got a couple of oil pumps from Arrow, and some EGT bungs for my pipes.
Then I picked up an 83 motor, with 1UA cylinders. The motor was in pieces, and needed pretty much everything, but it was complete. No missing parts.
I showed you pics of some Toomey pipes that I had squirreled away, and mentioned that I wasn’t completely happy with them.

And I got an O-Ring head from Slinger.

Image


And I’ve already shown you Five (5) pictures of that head.
I started with a wide angle pic of all the heads and then moved closer untill the last pic only showed one head.
The head with a clearly visible, 2 mm recess, machined into the combustion chamber.

Image


So, as far as I know, and trust me, I don’t know much, but as far as I know, a head like that is only good for 2 things.
A stroker motor, or motor with a really large squish.

I went with option A and bought a Hotrods +4 mm stroker crank, through the shop I work at.
Here’s an interesting / funny / strange / f*ked up story about parts pricing from the Canadian Parts Distributors.
The List Price on the Hotrods Stroker Crank (Crank only, Nothing else.) is $943.00
The List Price on the Hotrods Stroker Crank Kit (With engine gaskets and seals.) is $942.00
I just couldn’t resist saving $1, so I bought the Kit, even though I don’t plan on using the seals or gaskets.

Image


I got the crank 2 months ago. Still haven’t un-wrapped it to take a closer look.

Image


I bought a set of set of 64.5 mm Wiseco 795 series pistons to work with the 115 mm rods on the new crank.
The 64.5 mm bore and 58 mm stroke will give me a whopping displacement of 380 cc.

I got the pistons 3 months ago. Took 1 out of the box and had a peek.
It’s round, it’s shiny, it’s aluminum. Cool. I put it back in the box.

Image


On the last page of this thread, it was mentioned that Slinger supplied me with heads, cylinder porting, and pipes.
I was talking to Slinger last January, about doing some RZ & LC heads, and happened to ask if he still made pipes and ported cylinders.
He said yes, and then he said, if you’re going to all the trouble of porting cylinders, you’ll get a bigger bang for my buck with ported stroker cylinders.

And that got me thinking, planning, dreaming.
And after mulling it over for a while, I went “Hell Ya, I want that”.

So, the heart of the new motor is going to be a set of 31K cylinders that Slinger ported for a +4 stroker engine, and one of his stroker O-Ring heads.

I got the cylinders 9 months ago. I still haven’t un-wrapped them to have a look.
I imagine that they look awesome, but since I’m not ready to use them, I didn’t see the need to remove them from their protective packaging.

Image


Last March, when I received the head and cylinders, I also got a set of Slinger’s stroker pipes.
This set of pipes to be exact.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13737&p=138570&hili ... rm#p138570" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


When they arrived, I did partially un-wrap them, and have a look. And they look pretty cool.
But it was the middle of Winter, and the pipes were going to be sitting for quite a while,
so I put them back in the box and tucked them away so they’d be safe.

Image



Last October, I finally dug out the pipes, and tried fitting them on the bike for the first time.
And they just about fell into place.
Every bolt hole lined up perfect.
They clear the frame and the center-stand.
And they tuck in pretty nice.

But, of course you knew that, because I already posted a picture of my bike, with the new pipes installed. :smt003

Image


Summary of Engine Specs:

Displacement of 380 cc’s.
Slinger Ported 31K Stroker Cylinders.
Slinger Stroker Head.
Slinger Stroker Pipes.
Hotrods +4 mm Stroker Crank
Wiseco 64.5 mm, 795 Series Pistons
Arrow Oil Pump.
EBC FZ600 Clutch Fibers and Springs.
Toomey Y-Boot with K&N Filter
Zeeltronic Ignition
Dynatek Coil
OEM Banshee Reeds
Stock Carbs (for now, because that's what the budget allows)

So, I’ve managed to collect all the expensive parts, but still need to get the oem gaskets and seals from the dealer.
I still need to have the cylinders bored out.
I have to match the engine cases to the transfer ports on the cylinders.
And I have to have the crank checked to make sure it’s true.

After that, all I have to do is clean, inspect, paint, assemble, and tune.

Should be fun. :smt003

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Off Road
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Re: Low Budget Purple Project

#1212 Post by Off Road » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:23 pm

Slinger’S RZ385 Stroker Pipes

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13737&p=138570&hili ... rm#p138570" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Slinger built these pipes to for my bike, with the fairly wide FZR400 swing-arm, And the Stock RZ Center-stand.
The fit and finish of the pipes is excellent.
The welding looks great.
The exhaust flanges and the rear mounting brackets line up perfectly.
And the pipes clear the frame, the swing-arm, and the center-stand.

The rear mounting setup for the pipes is pretty trick.
There is mounting bracket that is bolted to the bike.
It bolts on behind the foot-peg bracket, using the existing foot-peg bracket bolts.
The pipe is bolted to the bracket through a small tab welded to the pipe.

This way you can mount the pipes using any foot-peg bracket or rear set.

In the picture you can see the steel mounting bracket, if you look through the cutout in the footpeg bracket.
And if look between the footpeg rubber and the shift lever pivot, you can just see the bolt that connects the pipe to the bracket.

Image




Side Note:

I wanted to get the pipe brackets powder coated, however the local Powder Coating companies all have a Minimum charge of $100.00.
I heard that Evan-Calgary and his dad have a small powder coating setup.
Evans dad came into the shop a few weeks ago, and I asked him if he could coat a few small parts for me. He said sure, no problem.
A week later he returned with the parts, and I asked how much I owed him.
He said there was no charge.
I reached into my pocket and had $20.00 and offered it to him to cover his time.
He refused. I must have offered the money at least a dozen times, but he wouldn't take it.

A really big thank you to Evan and his dad for the great work, and for helping out a fellow 2 stroker.

Now, the brackets will blend in with the powder coated frame, and will be almost invisible.

Image



I’ve been running Toomey pipes for a lot of years, and kinda got used to how they look.
When I first saw Slingers pipes, I couldn’t help but notice that they definitely look different than Toomeys.
The science, craftsmanship, magic, and art of pipe building.

Image


While I was checking out the 2 different pipes, it seemed that Slingers pipes felt lighter than the Toomeys.
Turns out I was right.

(The pipes were weighed with the mounting flange and spring, but without a silencer).

One Toomey pipe weighs 2.0 kg (4.4 lb)

Image


One Slinger pipe weighs 1.4 kg (3.08 lb)

Image


One Toomey pipe is 0.6 kg (1.32 lbs.) heavier than one of Slingers.
That makes a set Toomey pipes 1.2 kg (2.64 lbs.) heavier than a set of Slingers pipes.

If you’re one of those people who like to play with numbers, here’s a couple for you.
Slingers pipes are 30% Lighter than Toomey pipes.
Or you could also say:
Toomey pipes are 43% Heavier than Slingers pipes.


To summarize my thoughts on the pipes:
They fit great, every bracket and bolt lined up perfect.
The rear mounting bracket is ingenious.
They are lighter than the already light Toomey pipes.
And they look spectacular.




Image

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Off Road
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Re: Low Budget Purple Project

#1213 Post by Off Road » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:23 pm

So, my engine plan is moving along exactly like I had envisioned it. Almost.
There is one small, tiny, almost insignificant little thing that's bugging me

I was never a big fan of pipes with the raw, welded finish, so I ordered mild steel pipes with the intention having them chrome plated.
But now that I see the pipes in person, I love them. They’re a work of art.
But, they’re mild steel. This is Canada. It will rain. They will get wet. They will rust. :smt012

I’ve been told that you can put a clear hi-temp paint or clear powder coat on them.
I’ve also been told that over time these coatings can turn yellow from heat and general use.
That would suck.

So, as much as I like how they look, I think I’m going to have to go with my original idea, and have them plated.

On the down side, the chrome may hide some of the detail and craftsmanship that went into building them. :smt010

On the up side, they’ll still look pretty cool, and it’ll be really easy to get the chain lube off them. :smt003

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Re: Low Budget Purple Project

#1214 Post by Off Road » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:48 pm

Opened up the new crank last week to check the run-out, and to my surprise, I discovered that the Hotrods crank is welded. :smt023

Checked the run-out and it is Less Than 0.001". :smt023 :smt023

Since that was good, I decided that it was time to turn a wrench.

Image


Inside of the new engine looks pretty clean.

Image


Since then I've spent a couple of hours removing the case sealant and cleaning up all the gasket surfaces.

Next thing to do is dig out a grinder and match the upper case to the transfer ports in the cylinders.

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Re: Low Budget Purple Project

#1215 Post by L.B » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:21 pm

Why dont you clear powder coat them first,that will last a few years then when it turns shitty get them plated,I agree the welds look too good to cover up.
Match porting is the easiest,cheapest hp you can find.
Steve do you know if hot rods only makes the rz crank? Possible they do a lc as well?

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